Slappin’ Glass sits down this week with Greensboro Swarm Assistant Coach, Ben Resner! The trio dive into an array of topics including lineup and rotation considerations, including special defenders and playmakers, and talk locker room leadership and unique DHO actions during the always fun “Start, Sub, or Sit?!
Inside the Episode
“I think the most important thing we can do is help people understand themselves and then be themselves. Sometimes you may have people who are acting out as a vocal leader when they’re not modeling the behaviors, and we don’t want that either. So it’s not just about being vocal. I think a lot of times and this is coaches, this is players…just because someone’s loud, just because someone’s saying words, doesn’t mean that their trustworthy, doesn’t mean their dependable, doesn’t mean that their actions are backing the words they’re saying. Monty Williams had a great thing that with the Sun’s. ‘well done is better than well said.’ And people say the words, not understanding that. It’s not about the words. You have to do the things that you’re saying.” – Ben Resner
We were happy to be joined on the podcast this week in what turned out to be one of our favorite conversations so far this summer with Greensboro Swarm Assistant Coach, Ben Resner! The G-League is a unique level to coach due to the nature of the league, so we thoroughly enjoyed diving into Coach Resner’s thoughts on:
- Lineup and Rotation considerations and in-game decisions
- Playing through unbalanced lineups
- And we talk Unique DHO’s and Locker Room Leadership during the always fun “Start, Sub, or Sit?!”
Chapters
0:00 Lineup Considerations and Rotation Patterns
4:00 Balancing Lineups and Player Roles
14:34 Managing Individual Roles and Lineup Combinations
24:52 Analyzing DHO and Backside Actions
29:59 Importance of Spacing and Leadership Traits
37:29 Leadership Standards and Authenticity
43:17 The Best Investment in Coaching
46:22 Player Development and Lineup Strategy
49:10 Analytics and Lineup Development in Basketball
Transcript
Ben Resner: 0:00
I think the most important thing we can do is help people understand themselves and then be themselves. Sometimes you may have people who are acting out as a vocal leader when they’re not modeling the behaviors, and we don’t want that either. So it’s not just about being vocal. I think a lot of times and this is coaches, this is players just because someone’s loud, just because someone’s saying words, doesn’t mean that their trustworthy, doesn’t mean their dependable, doesn’t mean that their actions are backing the words they’re saying. Monty Williams had a great thing with the Sun’s. ‘Well done is better well said.’ And people say the words, not understanding that. It’s not about the words. You have to do the things that you’re saying.
Dan: 0:43
Hi, I’m Dan Krikorian and I’m Patrick Carney, and welcome to Slapping Glass, exploring basketball’s best ideas, strategies and coaches from around the world. Today we’re excited to welcome the G-League’s Greensboro Swarm assistant coach, ben Reznor. Coach Reznor is here today to discuss lineup considerations and rotation patterns, meaningful on-court minutes for developing players and we talk unique DHO actions and locker room leaders during the always fun start, sub or sit. Costa Rica, Spain, italy, australia, south Africa. We’re excited to announce our newest partnership with the world leader and international sport tours. Beyond sports Founder and former college and pro basketball coach, josh Erickson and his team of former athletes have built the go-to company for coaches looking to take their programs abroad, from the travel and accommodations to excursions and service learning opportunities. Beyond sports does it all. For more information and to learn why more than 650 universities have trusted beyond sports, visit beyondsportstours.com and tell them Slapping Glass sent you. And now please enjoy our conversation with coach Ben Reznor. Coach, we want to start with this and talking about lineups, rotations decisions that coaches have to make once the game starts. We’ve had some fun conversations before about lineups and how you put together all that stuff, and we wanted to actually go a little bit deeper with you and I know it’s something that you have to think about all the time at the GLE level too, you got to think about because guys are coming and going, sometimes new players having to fit in, and just how you basically put that together and we’ll start with this of just the things that you and the staff would think about when it came to lineups and rotations and substitution patterns. Once the game starts, whatever plan you had, but then once the balls tipped and you start getting into that game, what you guys thought about from that standpoint, from our perspective, I think there are four things that come to mind with me.
Ben Resner: 3:02
It’s really defensive versatility how we’re going to get stops spacing we have enough shooting on the floor. It’s playmaking we have guys who can get to the paint, you know, shrink the defense in and then make plays for others, and then the other would be rebounding. Obviously you’ve got to get a possession for the rebound. So do we have enough of those four things with the guys on the floor At all times? Really, that’s what we’re trying to think of and I think you know, specifically, once the ball goes up, I guess it’s talking about what are they doing defensively? You know, if they have, say, a big and a drop and we played our traditional five, maybe we want to put in a shooting five to, you know, attack their coverage. So those are the things that come to mind first, at least in terms of the baseline on how we’re building lineups.
Dan: 3:44
I want to circle back to those four in just a second. I know Pat might want to as well, but before we get more into those four with you pre-game, how you and the staff would think about minute distribution and trying to get the key guys that you need on the floor to keep that balance that you just talked about.
Ben Resner: 4:00
What’s a unique challenge of the G League is that we have guys who may have mandatory minutes. So I think that’s a big challenge. We may have a guy who’s set he’s got to play 25 minutes. So depending on, I guess we’ll say how reliable they are or how much we anticipate them playing down the stretch. Maybe there’s a time where if guy has to play the reality isn’t Julie we have to get their minutes check no matter what. So for a guy who we’re not worried about, we know this guy, we trust down the stretch and I’m not worried about necessarily getting his minutes out of the way. But in the G League it’s absolutely a thing where if we have a guy where we’re not sure we can trust him down the stretch, or we have a guy that we’d rather play, that is a factor and we’d play him maybe eight minutes in the first quarter just to get a good chunk and then we can down the stretch. We have the optionality to go away from somebody who we may not trust or won the game down the stretch and obviously the challenge there is that those guys are often coming from the Hornets. You know that’s a responsibility to hand out minutes to guys who may not have earned them is a unique challenge to the G League, where winning is not necessarily the priority. You know, the priority is making sure guys play. That’s a unique challenge before the game and where we have to keep that in mind at all times.
Pat: 5:10
On that note, with anyone’s best player, and maybe your best player is like a playmaker. So, with these heavy minute guys, how much of your conversation when it comes to rotations is maintaining this balance?
Ben Resner: 5:20
It’s always a balancing act, I think, when you’re trying to get accomplished those four things. If our best player is a playmaker, then we have that box checked for most of the game. So I’m looking to fill it with other areas. Maybe we need a guy who’s going to be dependable defensively. We need a guy who’s going to run to the corners. We need a guy who’s going to get great blockouts so we’re talking about a versatile wing or a guy who’s going to really defend around that playmaker. We need a guy who’s going to be able to shoot right if the playmaker is getting to the paint he’s creating for other guys that we have enough shooting on the floor once that guy. If we’re going to take that guy out of the game, where are we getting our playmaker from? Who are we playing through? You know, is it a big who can pass? And now we’re going to play through the elbows a little more than playing traditional pick and roll. So if that best player of ours is a playmaker, when he comes out I got to think where am I getting that area? Still, how am I going to check that box that we need to play well, to play a balanced lineup? Where am I to get that from when he comes out, and that goes for any of those four things that I mentioned. If our best players are traditional big and we want to go small, are we going to have enough rebounding on the court? Do I need to put in another wing instead of one of our smaller guards so we have enough rebound when we go small you mentioned it’s really just kind of a balancing act. I feel like you’re kind of toggling with the scales at all times. You know if I’m getting, you know you think about yokich, I guess, as an example. So they’re getting so much playmaking and rebounding from him when he goes out. They need to find. So now that you know you move that, you that’s flyder, I guess we’ll call it. You move those things down. Where are you going to be able to increase it back up? You know, where are we going to get the playmaking, where we can get the rebounding when he goes out.
Dan: 6:52
Pat and I were talking a little bit beforehand about meaningful minutes for players and let’s say you’re developing guys or your eighth, ninth man that you want to play, you know 10 to 12 or 10 to 15 minutes, and how you would think about whether or not they fit into those four perfectly but still get them minutes where they can develop, they feel confident in a way that you know, like we were talking about, pat and I were saying, like if you give them two minutes at a time here they never really get in the flow of the game and then they’re frustrated, and how you would think about trying to get lower minute guys minutes that matter for their development yeah, it’s definitely a factor.
Ben Resner: 7:25
We try very hard to not one yank guys and really give them a chance to settle into the game, and that works both ways. If a guy is playing well, he just made two shots, you know we’ll try to give him another minute to, you know, maybe another shot or whatever, even if we have to get him out. But yeah, like the lesser minutes guys, you have to give them an opportunity to settle into the game. You know you can’t just pull him, so you do have to plan ahead a little bit about which lineup I’m going to next, where we go and next, if I know, we’re taking out our best playmaker. Is this guy gonna fit in With that lineup or do I need to get him in early so then with the next group, when the playmaker comes out, I can put somebody else into that box? You got to be thinking. I think I’ll say even, like usually to the end of the quarter, is really how far I’m thinking ahead. Where are we going? And personally I’ll say for me it’s the reason that I have a hard time planning the lineups out ahead of time. I think it can be useful to get to your first couple subs, but once the game gets flowing, I think it’s hard to predict what’s gonna happen. If something they’re doing defensively, maybe they’re pressing and we need another guard on the floor, then I’m gonna have to deviate from the plan, which is fine, even if we’re planning ahead. But you just don’t know and you still have to. Even if you deviate from the plan, I still have to be thinking six minutes ahead. If we have to go back to somebody, then is this guy gonna fit in? Did we give there eight guy enough of a chance before pulling them? They’re all good questions, but I think that’s why it’s really about game flow, just trying to, as much as you can, have all those things on the floor.
Pat: 8:52
How transparent are you with the players in terms of these four things, with your lineups? And I guess then, the conversation of like role clarification or, like the fire, a playmaker for us, your Defensibility.
Ben Resner: 9:04
I think that’s as important as anything with the team. I think those conversations Should happen before the season and really as the season goes on. And I think, again, the challenging part about the G is that those roles are changing all the time, so you have to build a team that’s really adaptable, because one night you could have a guy, say a combo guard, who’s playing 15 minutes off the bench, and we have a two-way on assignment who’s gonna shoot the ball 25 times and play 25 minutes, no matter what, but then the guy from the NBA team goes back and now we need the backup combo guard to step in the next night after being a lesser usage guy. We need them to step in and be a shock creator for us. I think those conversations, especially in the G League, have to happen on a night-to-night basis, and I think it’s another thing where building balanced lineups almost provides clarity for everybody and that everyone knows their role, because everyone’s able to be themselves. If you have a bunch of, say, personal wings right, who aren’t really handlers, aren’t really shock creators say you have four of them in a big Well, someone’s got to dribble, someone’s got to create a shot, so now everyone’s gonna be outside their comfort zone a little bit right. And it works the same way. If we have everybody who wants to shoot and who’s gonna defend, you know who’s gonna get very blockouts. Who can we trust to run to the corner? Who’s gonna run the waves and transition like? Those conversations are imperative and I think if you build balanced lineups, the clarity almost builds itself in. And I think, a minute’s perspective when do we communicate that? I think I’ve had mixed results with that to this point. I would say sometimes you tell a guy, okay, you’re gonna go right back in, and then the game changes like this and now he has an expectation that he’s going back in when maybe you end up going away from them. The other side of that is if you build a rotation before the game, I think as much as possible you want the players to Understand when they’re gonna go in. I think most players feel like they’d want to have an idea of when they’re going in, when they’re coming out, but also guys who play bigger minutes. If you have the conversations early, you can build the buy-in before the problem happens if you have the conversations before the game happens. So if I bring a guy in and say, hey, we’re gonna get you early in this game for X reason, right, we want to bring you back with the second unit so we can play through you in the second unit. Then that conversations worth having. So when I take him out at eight minutes he’s not coming off screaming what the hell is going on, you know. So building in the buy-in before the problem comes up, I think is really important in general, and I think that’s especially with lineups and managing subs, because Nobody wants to come out the game and everybody wants to play. So having an idea as much as possible, it’s huge and communication is everything does it make hard to balance lineups when you just have specialist?
Pat: 11:39
is a specialist More or less valuable if you’re trying to look at it from a lineup balance?
Ben Resner: 11:44
in my opinion it’s more important. I had a conversation with the guy at the end of this year about all these things his role, how he fit into lineups, what we needed specifically from him while he was out there. You know, I talked about these positional boxes that I kind of see not just Like ours, shooting our small forward, but, I guess, more modern ways of looking at the game. And he kind of asked well, I think you’re putting me in a box. And my response to that was it’s not a box as much as it is a Framework that I see consistently throughout the modern NBA game. So the best way I think we all can be successful is excelling in the box that you’re given while Growing in areas that that box allows. I guess, as an example, you’re never going to turn Aaron Gordon into Chris Paul. Aaron Gordon can work on reads as much as he wants. In my opinion, he can play pick and roll as he could play live against video guys. He will not have the patience, he won’t have the vision. Who wanted the accuracy of a Chris Paul passer, and that’s fine. And I think the evaluation is the biggest thing being able to evaluate how a player can develop and what skills he will able to Grow into. What skills does he have? I think if you evaluate incorrectly, then you’re almost creating an unfair expectation, because now, if I give Aaron Gordon the ball and expect him to play fits, a pick and Rolls a night, he’s probably not going to have the success that Chris Paul has. So I’m almost doing a disservice to him by expecting something else, right? So I think it’s on the coach too. It’s hugely important. I think one of the most undervalued aspects of coaching is knowing what your players do well and knowing what they could do Well if you allow them to step outside of the things they already do well. I think player development to me is as much about maximizing the things you do well and minimizing the things you don’t as much as Expanding your game. And I’ll say it doesn’t mean you can’t expand your game, right. If I’m talking about, you know, a 3D wing per se, there’s a million things we work on with a wing who has the physical tools, but it’s not going to be handling bigger roles, it’s going to be close out attacks, it’s going to be athletic finishes around the rim, it’s going to be connective passes. The point I’m saying is each guy to me, has a framework and a pattern of skills we all see in the NBA game. So with every player, I think, when I’m talking about lineup balance, it’s where does this guy fit in? And I think that clarity can really help them ultimately more than put them on.
Dan: 13:55
Let’s make a little left turn in all of this for a second and talk about rest for your best players, to make sure that they’re ready down the stretch and I guess, maybe like throughout the whole game, but Specifically second half, when you know, we know no one wants to come out of the game, but they, they obviously need to and you need to keep your best players legs fresh and your best lineups fresh for the last four minutes and when you’re thinking about when and how to get them rest. That makes sense. How do you think about that? Is it in timeouts? Is it end of quarters? Is it a matchup thing where when a best player goes on the other team, you’re gonna take your best out so you don’t get killed lineup wise, like what? Is it to help with the rest?
Ben Resner: 14:34
The first thing that I’m looking at is just the individual. Maybe one guy’s comfortable playing ten minutes straight so we can sit him late in the third and early in the fourth and then bring them back in ten, whereas another guy maybe can’t play six minutes straight so he comes into starts with a fourth, but we got to get him out before. Another way is the media. People you like to use the media, we get him out before the media. It gets an extra 40 seconds. I that he’s got the media time out now we bring him in after the media. So I think every individual is different and I think communicating with them and studying them I’ll say it’s something that I want to get better at Personally. It’s understanding, really, when guys are tired and when they really need rest, because it’s everything you know. Obviously performance drops so much when you’re fatigued. So I personally am not looking as much about the other team, I think, but I do want to make sure when that guy comes out, like we’ve been talking about, that we have a lineup that can cover up whatever we’re taking away with him off the floor. So it’s a conversation first. It’s observing how they’re playing, whether it’s in training camp or as the games go on. I think we should always be learning about each other, you know, and then we can kind of craft a plan for each individual, but ideally to start with the fourth, I think, for your best players. I think I’d like to have everybody back in by five minutes, unless they have, you know, if they have a five thousand, maybe bring them back at four, the most part of the five-minute mark. I think I’d like to have everyone back in the team.
Dan: 15:48
Another left turn for me a little bit. Something I guess just myself I’ve thought a lot about as a coach is, in practice, how you get these mixed combinations of groups that are going to play together in a game to get meaningful reps in practice, because your average practice maybe your first five versus your second five. I know you try to mix them up a little bit, but you’re going to have these combinations on the floor where these guys need to get reps together in practice too, so that when they get to the game it’s not the first time they’ve ever played together. Even if it makes sense on paper, how do you think about in practice these combinations and getting meaningful time together in reps?
Ben Resner: 16:22
To be honest, it’s tough. I mean, even in the GLE we are not practicing very much. What we have is a lot of shooting days in between games. So I think there is value still in putting those groups together, whether we’re doing free man shooting, where we’re working on actions that we have in our offense, and then those guys are playing together and then we’re still discussing. This is what this guy likes to do well, and here’s how you guys can maximize and help each other. So we’re having those discussions in practice. I think, even if it’s not full speed, you watch it on tape. I think ideally, in a perfect world, they’re playing together. But in the GLE and the NBA, I think practice time is so limited, live play is so limited after training camp they have to find other ways to do it. So I think it’s the teaching during not live segments of practice or not days that aren’t live. You could still teach and still walk through things, and then I think it’s film seeing things that worked and didn’t work or what guys could do when those situations come up, and then you learn from playing, like you’re saying. But it’s going to be in games, I think, for the most part for us.
Dan: 17:20
My quick follow-up then is just on the sort of mixing of guys and lineups and getting reps, personalities and alphas and having the right kind of lineups when it comes to just who wants the ball, who demands the ball and I know, like in the GLE, you got a lot of people coming in and out but just how you think about the dominant personalities within groups and lineups and how that plays into who plays together too, it’s huge.
Ben Resner: 17:44
Like I said before, I think if you build a balanced roster and build balanced lineups, the role allocation almost takes care of itself because, guys, the conversation that you have with them, that builds the role clarity between the coach and the player. They know what they do, so when they check into the game and we put a balanced lineup on the floor, there is no redundancy. You may have the alpha personality, but he knows who he is. I read from the conversation, based on who’s around him. Everything comes back to communication. For me, those conversations have to take place, and again in the GLE. That’s why it’s so challenging, because it changes night to night. It changed our best player. It could change night to night who’s playing down the stretch could change night to night. A guy has an expectation that he’s going to play 35 minutes and then the next night he’s playing 10th and he’s playing off the ball. He played 50 pick and rolls last night. The assignments show up. Now he’s playing 12 minutes and he’s got to run to the corner. So it’s our job as coaches, I think, to have that line of communication, to communicate honestly with them and open about and be very specific about what their role is on night to night basis, and I think when you hear people talk about why the GLE is so challenging, why it’s so beneficial, is because you have to be so adaptable and you have to have those conversations, Otherwise things go haywire. That’s what you hear about the GLE all the time is everybody wants to shoot all the balls. So that’s what it is. Everyone understands that. So how did you fight that? It’s with lineup balance, balance roster and then communication and clear communication of roles on a night to night basis. It’s a never-ending process. I think, especially in the GLE, you never have the same lineup twice.
Pat: 19:18
Coach, I’d like to follow up about redundancy and whether maybe it’s injury, maybe it’s fouls, or if you’re at high school you know you can’t always pick your team. So when you have lineups that if we get general with it, let’s say the redundancy is it’s a defensive lineup or it’s none of the playmakers no real defensive versatility. How is a coach maybe you think then tactically in terms of okay, this is a defensive lineup, so I got to try to tailor how we play and pace or slope up versus okay, this is an offensive lineup. So what do I got to think about so you can win these events or not just get destroyed because the scales are so unbalanced? That’s an awesome question.
Ben Resner: 19:58
I think you said it. You have to be able to tailor your style of play depending on who’s playing. If we’re really going to maximize the strengths of the players and maximize the team, then we have to be adaptable. As a group, spoe to me always has done an unbelievable job. Their culture is regardless of who plays right, they play to a certain standard. They always defend, but, like offensively, maybe they’re playing a different way depending on who’s on the floor. If you mentioned a defensive lineup, if we can’t score on the half court, then we better force turnovers and get out and run. So it definitely has to be crafted to who is on the court and what you have from a playmaking perspective. If we have all playmaking and we don’t have anybody, I think you got to open the floor as much as possible. If we don’t have any shooting or we’re small, I think then we got to be more scrappy. Again, you got to get out and run and transition. If we’re a great passing team, we got to play in space, we got to get out and transition and we got to find a way to get stops. If generally, playmaking means smalls. So how are we going to get stops? Maybe we got to double the post, maybe we got to whatever switch pick and rolls and then run and jump so we can then get out and run. I definitely think you always have to be tailoring to the strengths you have on the team, and that’s why I’ll go back even a step further. Like I already mentioned, you have to know what the strengths are. You have to know who your players are. We really need to study the players and what they do well. That’s where everything starts. You could have a system, but it doesn’t mean it’s beneficial to everybody who’s in it, unless you’re recruiting and you’re recruiting everyone to fit in it. But that’s not often the case, necessarily, especially in high school or even in the gym.
Pat: 21:25
We’ve had this conversation recently outside of the film or knowing who they are before they come into the gym. But when you get them in the gym, what are some of the best ways a coach can learn from their players and, like you said, study them and start figuring out what they can and can’t do?
Ben Resner: 21:38
Obviously watching them, but I think it’s. I don’t want to be generic, but it’s just like all the time at MET, whether it’s the 2-on-0 pick and roll drill, if I’m watching a guy, did he cleanly come off the pick and roll? Did he throw an accurate pocket pass versus the guy who comes off? He doesn’t have a great setup. He turns the corner, he goes really wide, he doesn’t get downhill and then he throws a lob to the rim. That’s nowhere near the roller. Like, okay, that guy, probably even in 2-on-0, that guy’s probably not the guy that I’m going to trust to handle and pick and rolls. You know, I watch a guy shoot in a drill and he goes 2 for 10. That’s probably, and again, it’s much more nuanced than that. But it’s everything. It’s everything they do. It’s live play, it’s drill work, it’s I think you’re talking about alphas. I think your best player often has to have an alpha mentality. You know that they want the ball. Like, does the guy have that in stretching? Our guy’s looking to him, all the things you know. We could go down the list. Whatever you’re doing in practice, I think you have to be evaluating their skills. It’s even the warmup. It’s not just film, it’s the warmup, it’s the drills, it’s the live play, it’s everything, because that’s the game that’s happening in training.
Dan: 22:41
Certainly back to something you mentioned earlier in our conversation, and it was that you said you had some mixed results when talking to players about playing time before the game. And then something happens and maybe it doesn’t work out and I guess wondering your learning from why the results were mixed when you’re trying to communicate with players about playing time, what you, I guess, have learned from maybe the more difficult conversations?
Ben Resner: 23:04
I think a huge coaching is trust. You know it’s our job to build trust with the player, so I try as far as I can to. If I were to set an expectation that I need to follow through with my word. So what I don’t like doing is saying this is what I have for you. You’re going in at 10. Something changes. You’re not going in at 10 anymore. Next time I come to you to let you know, you’re going in at 10, you’re like you’re not really going in at 10. You don’t trust me anymore. So as much as possible I want to make sure that I can follow through with my word, because that is everything. It’s about being dependable and the players need to trust the coach is going to do what he says and his words aren’t empty. We’ve all seen some coaches where, like, you say something whether it’s I’m going to make you run if we don’t get 30 layups in a minute and then they get 29 and you don’t run. Words have to matter. So I think down to a little thing like, even if it’s not a big deal, I’m putting you in at six and then I don’t follow through. That is chipping away at the truck that they have when I speak, and they need to know that when I speak, that I’m speaking for a reason. There’s a purpose behind the words. I’m intentional with the words that I said.
Dan: 24:09
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Ben Resner: 25:45
That you said that that was Drey Mon Green, that I did the rocket, that that first but love to deal with coach Dantonia gets after I. Think they did it for hard and I think, but I’m pretty sure it was a hardened thing first.
Dan: 25:58
Yeah right, our history department’s lacking here, yeah we’ll have to sorry.
Ben Resner: 26:03
You guys got a lot of other areas.
Dan: 26:07
So that hook flip DHO popularized by Mike Dantonie. And then the third option is a corner step up DHO. So basically someone coming from either the dunker spot of the corner that’s quickly stepping up into a DHO, with someone coming from the slot or from the wing, like Miami does a great job of it a lot With Duncan Robinson.
Ben Resner: 26:26
So star, sub or sit those unique DHOs, the hardest one being hardest to guard like you just mentioned about Miami, I’m gonna start the uphill from the corner, I think, because you’re coming from below, the guy here dribbling uphill at is already behind you cannot. It’s impossible to go under that if you have a good dribble handoff angle. So there’s already advantage created because you’re coming from below the where you’re handing it off to. So now it’s an automatic two for one, because I got the guy on my back once I’m rolling into the paint, I think two. I’ll go with Mike Dantonie’s flip. It’s just hard to see coming. You don’t anticipate. He’s often coming from the back side of where the defender of the handler is, so I think you can’t see it. They’re thinking you’re cutting through and he just quick turns. I think. For me I’m deviating water from DHOs, but any type of angle changes with screens are generally really tough to guard in my opinion. So I think that’s lift is an angle change and You’re almost always going to be trailing with that because the guy defending the screener is going to be behind. And now you got to have the guy who got screened is trailing no matter what. And now you know, with the best handlers again, if you have the two on one, you know you’re gonna be in a tough spot and then I’ll sit the gut DHL.
Dan: 27:35
Love all the answers there. I actually wanted to start with your sub. You just mentioned something super interesting about you love changing angles, whether it’s a DHL, whether it’s a pick and roll, whether it’s a pin, whatever it is and I guess how you think about teaching those things to the guys, whatever action that they’re in, and kind of flipping and switching angles good question.
Ben Resner: 27:52
I think it depends kind of on the situation, like that flip, that what we’re talking about here with the flip DHO, there’s a specific thing we’re trying to get to. So that’s a specific teaching point about the play that we’re trying to execute, whereas if I’m saying in the middle of the floor we have a pick and roll and I want you to run up and change the angle at the last second, we may teach it with maybe a hip tap, you know, and then you know he’s going the other way. He may run up and we may say rub is always going to be the play where he changes the angle. But I think what happens as much as anything is if you don’t script it, as long as they know how to read it, then there’ll be an advantage. It’s not necessarily coming off the screen. Sometimes if you flip it late now you get the screeners defender jumping out, take the ball, but it opens up the refusal. The angle changes if you can get to a point where you’re using it, where it’s random and you’re not scripting it. I think the flip, like we’re talking about the DHO, and that’s since it’s useful because you can’t see that he’s about to flip it. And then, like we talked about you already, try out, but if you’re in the middle of the floor and you’re behind, I think it’s just a matter of trying to be as random as possible.
Dan: 28:49
Okay, make sense. I would like to go back to your start, which is that corner uphill DHO and we’ve seen a lot more of it recently, just different leagues and it seems like a nice, a popular action where you have a five or four coming out of that corner. The one thing on it is, you know, you get the shooter kind of going towards the baseline and then it opens up a natural either pop or short roll for that the guy given the DHO and how you think about the backside action where there’s three players away and what you want those three players away from, this action doing, cutting, spacing, you know, occupying, because there could be a situation where there’s, you know, three defenders kind of loaded up to the ball and how you want to play through that again it does go back to return about lineup or turn out lineups again.
Ben Resner: 29:31
Who’s on the floor on the backside? So is it in this situation that we’re talking about? Was it our five who was spacing in the corner, who got the ball kicked, him, and then we’re going uphill with him? So now the other side has three smalls who can shoot and therefore they’d be outside three point line, which opens up the paint a little more obviously. Or is that a four or another wing? So now, when he goes uphill, is our five in the dunker. So maybe we just interchange with those two guys away from the dunker, you know, on the opposite side of the corner in the wing. I think it’s again lineup dependent. I do think it is important to do something, but there’s also a school of thought would say that spacing is the biggest factor. There is because and I think you mentioned the pop or the roll there’s an automatic to me that play the uphill DHO is always going to be a roll, because once he sets that screen, the guy who Was defending the now handler is behind. Because of the angle of the DHO uphill he’s behind. So I would want that guy to roll every time. And now, if you have somebody in the dunker, the dunker still has to step up and take the roller, you know. So now maybe it opens up the lob or and then the corner kick if the guy sinks on the legs of the five. So like, as long as your spacing is good, the advantage is already created. You just have to make the right read at that point. So I think my default would be I’m not necessarily worried about us having some sort of backside action to Distract everybody from looking at the roller, because we have the advantage. You know the roller is going to be open no matter what. So he’s got to be able to make that. Four on three read. The next read. Okay.
Dan: 30:56
I have one more quick follow-up and I guess it would go to your sit and the gut DHO and just your reasoning of why that one would be the easiest to guard and of these three for you my caveat would be I haven’t really ran it myself At any teams that I’ve been with at a high level, so I’d want to learn more about it.
Ben Resner: 31:15
Plus, I like the other two, so that’s definitely a reason other one and two, but you know the guy’s gonna be trailing no matter what, but I just yeah, I don’t know. I want to do more research on, I want to be around it more. I want to if it gets the point where I try to install it. I know Golden State went to it this year in one of the games after they were getting was it the sack series, I think? Or I don’t know what series it was. I know they went to it a little bit, so like they’re getting clay open with it a couple times. Yeah, and I’d like to learn more. I think I’m not sure I’m defaulting, because I like the other two and I’d like to learn more about third, I think it’s interesting it is an angle that’s taking them.
Pat: 31:49
You know, if we talk about this DHO angles and Like the hook, the flip, the corner, like all the angles are attacking and with this gut, this when it was it is the angle Is taking them away and it seems like, okay, if you’re a high-level player, but it is a difficult Like to be running away from the ball. Get the handoff square up. It’s a lot work compared to you. Just keep going to the rim.
Ben Resner: 32:10
The way we’re talking about like. So to me I almost had spin was has something different like. To me, I guess spin was was coming from like a rip screen angle more of a diagonal angle into the handoff, as opposed to the gut is Coming straight up from under the rim and I was kind of flipping it behind, whereas it’s not as much to me. This, yeah and that’s what I’m referring to more. Yeah, so so spin was to me is more of a jump shooting action. Or I’m flipping it to try to get a jumper and then maybe because they put two on the ball because the gravity of the guy coming Off, then we hit the roller. But to me the gut is either, you know, if it’s a handoff and not a gut screen, then he’s handing it off and he’s really just turning the corner because I think, unless he’s trailing so much like it’s a tough shot, yeah, I mean you’re running away from the rim and then I think maybe you’re getting downhill because they’re trailing. But I guess in my head I had those two as different things. Spinu was and a gut handoff there.
Pat: 32:59
Enough, yeah and I mean that’s what I was referring to to just getting what everyone labels everything you were thinking.
Ben Resner: 33:05
I was thinking the gut, yeah, no for sure. You were thinking the gut, okay, yeah. So it’s like because that’s a factor in all this too, right is does everyone even have a shared definition for the same terms? You know, I mean cliff. I’ve never heard, aren’t you? He said on the pod, but cliff calls pop layer. So he’ll say pick and flare, and I’ve never heard that in my entire life and he’s obviously forgotten more than I know about basketball. So, like, my point is that everybody has their own language, you know. So I think that the biggest thing, when you’re building a team and obviously cliff did this, or whatever team you’re building, whoever’s in charge, you have to build in a system of talk. So we have shared definitions for what we’re talking about. So you know, we’re not saying the same word but meaning two different things. All right coach.
Pat: 33:47
Our next one has to do with leadership traits. So we’re gonna give you three leadership traits that you would value the most in your player, one of your leaders, in terms of Managing a locker room when you’re not around. So what you value the most in your leader when it comes to locker room management? The first one an Empathetic listener or an empathetic ear. The second one is a standard setter. And the third one is an accountability piece, willing to hold his teammates accountable To me. You have to start a standard setter.
Ben Resner: 34:19
If this guy shows up every day and Steph comes to mind he’s not the most vocal, but he shows up, he’s about the work, he’s consistent, he’s dependable. You know exactly what you’re gonna get. He’s the leader of the team and he’s setting the tone. This is what we’re about. That is the most important thing. Without a doubt, we’ll sub an empathetic listener. I think it’s generally rare to find our job as coaches is to be empathetic and listeners, but I think players often don’t have enough empathy for each other. It’s harder to find and it is valuable. You know you could be understanding and you could put yourself in someone else’s shoes, and then you have to communicate with each other. You know that is part of it. It’s conflict resolution and if you’re not able to listen, or if you are able to listen in this case why I said sub and why I think it’s important is because that’s how you resolve conflict, that’s how you build good communication, that’s how you build trust is by listening to each other, by hearing someone out, by trying to figure out why they may be right instead of why you’re just assuming that they’re wrong. You know so we’ll sub empathetic listener and we will sit someone willing to hold someone accountable? Because my thought there is. Are they willing to hold themselves accountable? This is what I thought when it came to mind is we can’t have the guy who’s holding everyone accountable but not holding himself accountable, because now, what kind of standard are we setting? You know now that I’m holding you accountable, but I’m above the fray. I’m not held the same standard as you because I’m the leader. So I think those two things have to go hand in hand.
Pat: 35:36
I like to follow up just with the empathetic ears your sub. How, as a coach, can we build an environment where a low-minute guy can go and talk to a high-minute guy, whether it’s about his role, but like building an environment where that communication is encouraged or allowed and guys Aren’t so necessarily? Just like, well, I can’t really go talk to that guy because he’ll never relate. He’s getting 30 minutes a game, you know. I think that starts with us.
Ben Resner: 36:02
I think that’s one of our biggest jobs is to be the standard bear. You know, we’re talking about accountability. I was like, if we’re gonna Expect that our players would be able to have honest conversations with from the tenth guy to the first guy, then we need to have honest conversations with everybody on the roster. You know, and we need to model that behavior. I’m having those same honest conversations. That’s where it starts, like the coaches have to Model that every day. And then you have to build the trust, like we were talking about earlier. They have to know that in our building, words matter and we’re gonna be honest with each other. We’re gonna communicate. If I have an issue, I’m gonna come to you so we can resolve it. We need to be about conflict resolution. We need to be about eye contact and it’s not personal. It’s just that this is how we’re gonna get better by embracing these conversations, even though they may be challenging or uncomfortable, regardless of where it’s coming from. I have to be able to be a listener. I have to be empathetic for how someone else may feel.
Dan: 36:55
If the coach builds that in, then we all know what our goal is and we know this is an essential aspect of how we’re gonna get there coach, I’d like to ask you about your sit, which is holding others accountable and it’s really hard to do peer-to-peer right and if there’s been instances in your career where you’ve seen it done well and what exists between those two individuals that makes it work, so it doesn’t blow up into something negative but can be positive, I think it’s kind of involves the other thing, like they have to be humble enough and open to listening.
Ben Resner: 37:29
I think, as people, they have to be about solutions, they have to want to find solutions, they have to be open to communicating with their teammates. We can try to build it right, but if they’re not open to that then you know it’s not going anywhere. When have I seen it done well? I think it’s just when it’s two individuals who are really about growth, who have a mindset like that they’re not above anything that they can be held to a standard. They can be held accountable. They’re looking to be held accountable by anybody because they want to get better. You know, they want to be part of the team and it is my opinion that even people who are acting out, they’re just acting out because they haven’t been held accountable. Everybody wants that and I think the reason why I have it as sit is because, again, I think as coaches, that’s our other thing we need to hold everyone to the same standard. That’s what it needs to be, and I think if we do that then they can hold. Hopefully, if we build that in, hold each other to the standard following that, but, again, if we don’t hold the first guy to the same standard as the 10th guy, and the guy is their acceptance to right, and we’re talking about the NBA. So exceptional players are exceptional rules. That’s also the truth, but the level of clarity and honesty that needs to take place surrounding those conversations builds the trust.
Dan: 38:39
We don’t do this a lot, but if I flip this question a little bit on start subset and we were talking locker room leaders, you know kind of peer to peer, would your answer there be the same or different if the question was about coach to player and those three options as to what would be the most important for the coach to have the standard setter and pathoglister accountability holder?
Ben Resner: 38:57
Wow, start subset on those three. I think standard setter, accountability and empathetic listener. I think from coach to player, it has to be the standard there first. We have to model the behaviors every single day. If I don’t know how to listen, I don’t want to meet with them. They’re going to see the behaviors that I’m acting out every day. They’re going to see that I’m having conversations. They’re going to see that I’m holding everyone accountable and obviously these things are all tied together. But the standard there, if you’re not consistent, that’s the thing. It’s the cumulative weight of a day after day consistency that builds the discipline. So if you don’t have the standard there, you have nothing. Because there’s no discipline, because they don’t know what to expect from the coach. You can’t expect them to play the same way every night, regardless of circumstance. So to me, a standard there is the starter, from coach to player. I think I will sub accountability, because they just have to be consequences for behaviors that we’re not going to tolerate. If we’re building a culture buzzword, but it’s the behaviors that you allow and the behaviors that you don’t. So if I’m not holding anyone accountable for anything and they just do whatever they want, they don’t sprint back and transition ever, then I have nothing. I have to hold them to that standard every single time. Again, it’s kind of tied together. But if I don’t hold them accountable for getting back and transition every single time, then they won’t get back and transition. They’re not going to sprint. So if I say it every single time, I hold the guys accountable. I hold every single guy accountable to sprinting back, pointing into the pain and matching up. Then they know that leaves the listening which is really important. So now I feel bad that I said it because I’ve been talking about it the whole time. But an empathetic listener is hugely important and it’s a sit by default.
Pat: 40:40
Bringing it back to peer to peer. Now you started the standard setter, which is probably a little bit more of the work ethic is either hardest worker in terms of the other two, Like being a vocal leader. Is that something that can be developed in players or is that more like the player just has it in him?
Ben Resner: 40:56
I don’t think it’s something that you develop, because I think a key thing that we haven’t talked about, that’s important in all this for coaches too is authenticity. You know, you have to know who you are and you have to be yourself. You know, we talked about Steph before. This actual idea is something that I’ve been developing my own thoughts on is vocal versus not vocal leaders. But again, steph is not always a vocal leader, but he does a lot of behaviors on an everyday basis and thus people look to him, you know, because he holds himself to a standard, he’s about the work, he communicates the right way, he’s respectful, he listens Not that I’ve been around him, but it seems that way and what I’ve studied. So, no, I don’t think so. I don’t think you develop vocal leaders, and I wouldn’t want to. I think the most important thing we can do is help people understand themselves and then be themselves. So I think sometimes you may have people who are acting out as a vocal leader when they’re not modeling the behaviors, and we don’t want that either. So it’s not just about being vocal. I think a lot of times and this is coaches, this is players just because someone’s loud, just because someone’s saying words, doesn’t mean that their trustworthy doesn’t mean their dependable doesn’t mean that their actions are backing the words they’re saying. I think Monty Williams had a great thing that came with the suns Well done is better than well said. I think people say the words, not understanding that it’s not about the words. You have to do the things that you’re saying and that’s why it was so important to me that players can depend on me that the words that are coming out of my mouth I’m following through with you know, because we don’t want to have an organization or a building where words are shallow and people just say things and they don’t back up. You know it has to be intention. That’s the meaningful and that’s where you build trust. To answer your question directly, it’s no. I don’t think you build vocal leaders and I wouldn’t want them to. I encourage them to find themselves and figure out how they feel most comfortable leading and then lean into whatever they feel most comfortable doing, because the best communicators, the best leaders are authentic to themselves and they are just comfortable in their own skin.
Dan: 42:52
Coach Wells said you are off the start subset hot seat. Thanks for playing extended hot seat yeah yeah, we kept it. It’s hot or a little longer for you today. So that was great. Thanks for going through all those Coach. We got one more question for you to close the show before we do. This was really fun. Thank you for all your thoughts and your time today. We really appreciate it. Yeah, for sure I’ve enjoyed it. Our last question for you what’s the best investment that you’ve made in your career as a coach?
Ben Resner: 43:22
I’ll say kind of part A, part B. I think there is a financial aspect. As soon as college ended, I flew myself out to Vegas. I’m obviously going to be a summer league. I always knew what I wanted to do for me, there’s never been a question. So there is a financial element of it where you have to make the money. I was driving Uber. Everyone’s got their story of what they were doing for money. The financial investment, the time investment, those you have to do that year after year. I flew myself out there time after time, and so the investment that I would say 1A is just showing up time after time, no matter how you feel good or bad, no matter how someone makes you feel, because I think many people I’m sure many of your listeners, you guys maybe you were looking for somebody who were looked over by somebody in a higher position or weren’t given much respect by somebody that they approached or tried to speak to. I think you just have to show up event after event, have people see your face, try to get to know people, try to have them get to know you, and it’s not going to go well sometimes. So I think obviously there’s a will, there’s persistence, there’s a determination that goes to that. But the investment is financial. It’s obviously how it gets started, but it’s show up to as many things as possible. The best investment you can do is just be there, be in the fight, be in the mix, give yourself a chance, even when it doesn’t feel good to do so.
Dan: 44:41
Sometimes we’re lucky enough, the guest wants to stick around after and have some time to talk for 10, 15, 20 minutes and coach Reznor is nice enough to just chop it up with us afterwards. And, man, fun just to get to know him. Really intelligent coach about the right stuff. It’s just good to get to know him even more after the fact and just kind of even expanding on some of the ideas that we just talked about here, which was fun for us as well. So, Pat, let’s just dive into this right away. I think the one thing about a G-league coach that’s always particularly interesting when it comes to lineups is because of the nature of that job where you have players going back and forth and different nights, which he alluded to a bunch. They just have to think about this so much that they often and my coach Reznor did they often have really good thoughts about how to balance lineups and how to be efficient with substitution patterns and all that.
Pat: 45:32
I think it came across in the conversation and how well he spoke about these things. But yeah, to start it, I mean I really like the four things he said he really thought about and what. To me it wasn’t anything to do with position, it’s obviously the important skill and just blending the right, let’s say, talent out there, rather than I need a one, a two, a three, a four, a five, because you can still have lineup and balance if you’re just thinking positionally, I really just kind of big picture, just enjoyed the framework that he talks about and what they hold valuable and when kind of making these lineup decisions and as you start to begin to substitute, keeping these four things the defensive versatility, spacing, playmaking, rebounding in mind to just kind of guide you as the game unfolds and different situations are presented that as a staff you have to react to and in your substitution patterns.
Dan: 46:22
Can’t remember when, but you asked a good question. You kind of connected this to the player development and how okay, here’s the four things that are really valuable. And then when you look at those four things and you start putting the lineups together and you have, say, a sub that’s more of just a shooter Like then how do you think about the player development? Maybe give them more minutes because they can do more things, which I think was a good question by you that he connected to, and then I think he had an interesting comment too about sometimes, though, the specialists do help, because they also really anchor in the lineups and how you play style, play a little bit too. That was good in there as well, and I enjoyed too.
Pat: 46:58
I think it also helped when you you know your major minute guys, so like kind of them working around, that like these guys are going to have the majority of minutes, so how it kind of shapes your rotation, knowing who you got to keep on when he’s on and then when he comes off, you know the void you need to fill there. So, working around, okay, you have this framework, you know who your major minute guys are, and then just filling in the cracks from there For me at least, shed lighter, you know it was very beneficial and just how you think about whether it’s who you’re going to start, who you’re going to bring off the bench, but just kind of keeping these things in mind and not getting stuck with imbalanced lineups or lineups that are too heavily offensively or the other way, defensively. You know, kind of like we talked about before when we were prepping, that can really kind of swing a game, lead to runs against and, as we all know, those make the differences at times.
Dan: 47:44
Yeah, I like his thoughts a lot too on. I think at one point kind of got on about rest and you know how you think about just keeping your best players fresh for down the stretch and how they look to do that kind of stuff. And that popped into my mind because there’s another podcast we had I think I’m forgetting what year it was, maybe a year and a half ago with coach Martin Schiller and we talked a little bit about substitutions with him and one of the things he mentioned was like in Euro League or in that style of play, they would try to go sub for sub with a matchup that worked and so if a player got subbed off, they would take their best defender off because they needed to arrest him at some point, and they wanted to arrest him when the other player was off the court, no matter who else was on. So just interesting ways to think about how you may or may not arrest players as well.
Pat: 48:33
And I think we always talk about, maybe topics or conversations we would like to have. I think that’s something I wish. I would have liked to have followed up more of it, like just how, then, matchups also dictate your substitution and how you think about these lineups and two on the other side of the coin, when you’re in a playoff setting and these matchups can hurt you, but also not being too overreactive to what the other team is doing, and I think there is some advantage to it how reactive versus proactive you are as well during the course of the game, and I would have loved to explore that topic a little bit more with them.
Dan: 49:04
I think it would have been interesting, Since you’ve talked about maybe not a miss, but just something you wish you had more time with Coach Reznor too. I had written down. I just didn’t get to asking about how some of the analytics play into these things and I think that just, it’s always interesting to ask as far as what they might look at in analytics to decide how these decisions are made and specifically like, is there a stat that’s higher up in their decision making than others, Like adjusted plus minus or the PPP of there’s so many good stats out, like you can get good data now and I didn’t get a chance to ask him on that, so that’s something I would have asked him personally.
Pat: 49:41
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing when you asked about the practice setting and how they kind of explore these lineups, and, as we have found out, in the G League there’s just not that much practice time. So he alluded to just other stuff and that also popped in my mind, like what kind of stats then maybe they’re looking at to back some of their decisions.
Dan: 49:58
That’s a real thing. I think about a lot is when you have all these combinations of players let’s say your top nine to 10, the balance and practice of like when you go five on five or when you do all this stuff like wanting your top group to get used to playing with each other, but then also you want to get your top four with your seventh man in there, when you need there’s only so many hours in practice to fiddle with these combinations and to get them quality reps and that’s something just we always talk about too, of just getting combinations quality reps so when they get in the game. It’s not the first time this combination of players has played meaningful minutes together.
Pat: 50:31
I think you bring up a good point and it’s kind of, I think, what was so, what we look forward to this conversation, just because I think there are moments in a game or throughout a season that do happen where you get lineups where you have these three guys, these combination guys have never played with each other, or what I also enjoy, I like unbalanced lineups. All of a sudden it’s like I mean, how are we going to score with this lineup, or how are we going to get stops, and so it’s just fun to get this like. I keep referring to this framework and how they work on it, how they develop these lineups, was what I think, the core of what we wanted to kind of get at with this conversation.
Dan: 51:02
Start subset. I get a chance to, you know, get to some DHOs again.
Pat: 51:07
Fresh that.
Dan: 51:08
Which is always fun for me. You know, Pat, those of you who know, I have a just a huge, huge video library of DHOs that I just compile daily, weekly, that I don’t know if we’ll ever do anything with.
Pat: 51:20
But not now at least.
Dan: 51:22
But no, I got a chance to go to the DHOs and I think with this question we talked before you and I about like just there are some really interesting dribble handoff situations that we’ve seen more and more from teams, and one of them was what was his start, the corner step up. Seen a lot more of those and honestly, what I really liked too was just we got in a little conversation about the difference between the gut DHO and a spinulus DHO and like the slight difference of the angle, which was cool, just the vocab. On that. I’ll just kick it back to you on any takeaways from that first DHO conversation.
Pat: 51:55
You kind of hit on it a little bit or alluded to it, but I really enjoyed just the changing the angle, just the importance of an angle which we’ve talked a lot about and of course, forcing overs. But I mean I think, which is why with these flip screens, these corner step ups, it’s such an attacking angle. And then what he talked to this, how flipping it and if you can develop that, naturally, have it be more unpredictable and when you change the angles and just the stress it puts on the defense. So I just enjoyed that whole conversation.
Dan: 52:24
I didn’t know that Antoni was the first one to do the hook or flip, so it’s good to know.
Pat: 52:29
But we were right about the heat. I know that much.
Dan: 52:32
Yeah, exactly with the corner stuff. But you know, what I liked about this conversation is just like when you’re thinking about things that are hard to guard, you know that corner step up is like he talked about. It’s the defender, the actions behind you, so it’s like super difficult to have any sort of pressure. Miami does it so good with Duncan Robinson and then, like Duncan Robinson is so good at if he’s not shooting it, he puts that little pocket pass to the roller and then they play on the backside the hook DHO, like in the gut, like they’re just interesting things for the defender where you’re chasing, and anytime you get that defender chasing at an odd angle, then with some patience and with some reps in these DHOs you can really create a nice advantage off of what flows from it. Yeah, I think it was fun to just pick his brain on what he sees and why these things are hard to guard in general. And then let’s flip over to the locker room stuff, which was another really great conversation with him, and I’ll let you take it there as far as your takeaways.
Pat: 53:26
I enjoyed the conversation we kind of ended with in terms of developing vocal leaders. But I’ll start with and I think when we put this question together, I think we wanted to have like one where it was, you know, in the standard center, where it wasn’t yet a vocal leader. So like, obviously I’m seeing where his answer would take him, you know, but making kind of clear delineage, like we gave two that were the vocal leadership aspect and one that was the work ethic and I’m going to do the work but in the time and so it was fun to hear his answer and what he started and what you know he valued and go through that. But ultimately I just liked the conversation we settled on at the end with you probably can’t really develop it and he doesn’t like trying to force guys into these situations because I agree, I think you know we always talk about it if you’re not authentic as a coach or if you’re trying to force local leaders like guys, see through that right away. I really liked the quote that he Monty Williams, where he said well done is better than well said. So that was a really cool quote. That just kind of summed up I think that whole conversation and just, you know the value of communication and versus behavior model.
Dan: 54:29
For sure. We’ve been fortunate to have a lot of fun conversations about leadership development with different coaches. I wrote down it was just reminding me of two. One of them was a more recent one with Julie Folks, transylvania women’s basketball, and how she helps develop her leaders when they come in, and the expectations of a freshman to a sophomore, junior, senior, and so much of it is about who they are and how their personality can impact the team. And then, a couple of years ago, brady Bergeson we had on from Regis, vision Two from Regis, and he talked about their leadership groups that he puts together and helping those leaders develop. And I think what sticks out to all three of those conversations to me is that the value of helping players understand just who they are and that there’s so many different ways to lead. And if you’re not someone that’s able to get in front of a group and talk and I think that’s hard for everyone to do I think the number one fear of people in general is public speaking. It’s just hard for anyone. But I think that the ability to develop who you are and you know, settle into whatever it is that you do well, just be great at that and that that has value within a group and that, yeah, would you like your best players to also be all three of these things the standard setter, the accountability holder, empathetic listener? Yeah, that would be great. But really just being able to lean into what you do best can have really good benefits. And honestly, I think too like this is just sometimes a personal feeling when you’re asking someone who you want to be a leader to do something that they’re not comfortable with, it almost can make them worse as a leader because now they’re anxious about it or not comfortable or doing something outside of what they do best, and though you want them to grow, it can also kind of cause friction between you and the person you’re trying to have lead, and so I think that, like these kind of conversations can help with a more genuine relationship between player coach so that you can hold them accountable as a coach to something that you know is in their skill set and you know they can do well, and you’re not asking to do something that they feel uncomfortable doing, if that makes sense.
Pat: 56:33
No, it doesn’t. I think too it also can affect. If you’re trying to force a guy to be a vocal leader, it can affect his relationship peer to peer in the same way you know that trust is broken. And the same way you know Coach Reznor alluded to when he says you know, hey, at the 10 minute mark you’re going to get in, and then he doesn’t, and so the next time you say it’s losing meaning. So the same way, if you try to force this leader to speak up, guys see through it. It’s not going to be authentic. And we go back to the folks conversation. They probably also don’t have a good understanding of tone and how they deliver the message. So you know, usually you’re not telling peer to peer, it’s. You know, maybe it’s sometimes got to be the truth. Let’s say it’s got to be hard news. And if he doesn’t deliver that in such a proper tone, it can really then break the trust between him and his teammate.
Dan: 57:19
Yeah, I think you and I have been in plenty of locker rooms, both as players and coaches, where someone tries to be vocal and it’s just not received super well for a variety of reasons.
Pat: 57:30
It’s either like way too harsh or it’s almost comical because it’s like this is so far out of this guy’s personality. I think, too, we don’t want to be too harsh. I mean, you also have to credit the player for trying, you know. I mean 100%. That has to be recognized and applauded as well, but it is a delicate dance. Let’s say that you got to be mindful of when trying to put them in situations that it’s not authentic or true to them.
Dan: 57:53
Yeah, and sometimes too, if a player isn’t vocal, and then when they are, that can have a powerful effect too, where it’s like, okay, this person never really speaks up and now all of a sudden they’re saying something and rather than the guy or girl is just always talking I mean, we have plenty of those, we’ve played with her now it’s just like they never stopped talking. So when someone else pipes up, it can have an impact too. So well, coach Reznor was equally fun, as he was knowledgeable, and so that was a pleasure to talk to him. And Pat, there’s nothing else. Well, all this a day. Thanks for listening everybody. We’ll see you next time.