In this special episode Slappin’ Glass is joined by Coach Drew Dunlop to look back on the learnings and practical takeaways from the month of January’s podcasts, which covered the areas of Learning Environments, Ecological Design, Feedback, Training vs. Trusting Mindsets, and much more. The trio discuss their own thoughts and trials with different elements of each and ideas for the future.
Transcript
Drew Dunlop: 0:00
I think, like anything, it’s a tool. It’s something that you can use along with other techniques and strategies Rob Gray talks a lot about when he was with the Boston Red Sox. As game day started earlier in, the day would be more variability, but as the game got closer, things started going more towards what players felt comfortable with, with confidence, boosting, performance type activities where they’re trying to build a rhythm. You have to find that way to fight the big battles and kind of give up the smaller things that really don’t make a difference. I would rather have my guys going into games feeling really comfortable and confident and doing whatever their game day routine is, instead of just trying to disrupt that. For the sake of I want to do this.
Dan Krikorian: 0:46
Hi, I’m Dan Krikorian and welcome to Slapping Glass Exploring basketball’s best ideas, strategies and coaches from around the world. It was a busy season for all of us, and today we’re sifting back through some of the podcasts you may have missed, while chasing that league title, specifically our first five episodes of the year, where we explore the areas of learning environments, ecological design, training versus trusting mindsets and much, much more, and discuss some of the practical ways that these things take shape on the court, giving some of our own experiences. Along the way To do this, we’re joined once again by our friend at the Pro Lane, drew Dunlop.
Drew Dunlop: 1:28
Appreciate it, guys.
Dan Krikorian: 1:30
Who has become our go-to source on all things about ecological design, the CLA, training, mindsets and much more. Please enjoy this roundtable discussion between myself, pat and Drew Dunlop between myself, pat, and Drew Dunlop. In January, pat and I really focused on knowledge retention, the CLA, ecological design, mental performance, a lot of stuff that was interesting to us and got a ton of really positive feedback from coaches reaching out, asking more about it and things like that, and we wanted to run back through those a little bit and also through having you here, someone that practices this stuff every day, puts it onto the floor for players, and being able to bounce some of the ideas that came up on those shows and then kind of giving it an on the court.
Patrick Carney: 2:18
Look, yeah, I think, like you said, when we looked at January, it was a good 360 view of how players learn and how to teach. We started with Donaldson from retention and questions, but then we got into it. Andy Bass, we hit a little bit and, of course, with Nola Roach. Like you mentioned, this ecological dynamics, the CLA, and I think, dan, what you and me, I mean, we’re really curious about this topic right now and Drew, we’re having constant conversations with you and we’ll get into the project we’re doing with you. But it’s like, where does kind of the ecological dynamics CLA fit into?
Patrick Carney: 2:50
We always talk about the slice of the pie of coaching, you know, in terms of player development in season. Concept development, like where does it fit in the coaching world? And help you win games on top of developing players when I think it can be, has a ton of benefits for player development, skill acquisition. But, like I said, now moving to, I have a team, I have a week to get ready to prepare, like, how can I get my players to retain a concept? How can I get players to play better in a concept? And what are the new methods, the better methods, the more efficient methods, whatever you want to use, use to teaching. This is kind of what’s been fun working with you guys and referencing back to our podcast having these conversations with practitioners, coaches, who are also thinking about these things Just really quick, just for the listening audience.
Dan Krikorian: 3:34
We’re going to talk about these five podcasts today, or the ideas on the five Brittany Donaldson from the Atlanta Hawks on knowledge retention, learning environments. Andy Bass from the Pittsburgh Pirates on feedback, vocabulary, mental freezes and varied repetition. Cody Topper, head coach of Capital City Go-Go in the G League, expected possession value skill application. Bernie Holliday, who was Andy Bass’s mentor, also at the Pittsburgh Pirates, talking about trusting versus training mindset. And then Noah LaRoche, nba skills trainer, on chasing space and principles of play. And so all these things kind of combined today to talk to Drew about.
Drew Dunlop: 4:11
So, drew, my first question for you and I know listening to those episodes and working in it is how you’re taking the stuff that’s coming out daily on the CLA, ecological design and what you’re thinking about that’s most important, I guess to then put into what you do with the pro lane every day, just kind of speaking to those five podcasts like as a fan of the show and obviously an outsider looking in, you guys are starting to capture a run of kind of the next money ball areas, right when it’s skill acquisition, it’s the mental side, and we all know, like how much that plays a part of player success, organization success, the team success overall.
Drew Dunlop: 4:48
It was really cool to kind of hear those different perspectives and be able to kind of figure out how does it play a part in what I do daily and I’m sure you know coaches are thinking the same thing and you can kind of relate it to your own personnel.
Drew Dunlop: 4:58
So when we look at all this stuff coming out, it’s just trying to think about you know it’s overwhelming at times. It’s trying to find one or two things that you can lock in on that you think relates to what you have currently, your current situation, and then just trying to experiment with it. And obviously in my situation I don’t have wins and losses. Guys are going to come through the door the next day and it’s just kind of prepping and you know it’s more of like a long game. But what’s nice about how you guys presented it was it’s actionable things that teams in the middle of the season, the dog days of the season, can try to implement going into that next game, going into the stretch of maybe you got a three-game road trip, you know and finding ways to try and add value to your squad you mentioned, you’re kind of in a position where you can play the long game with it.
Patrick Carney: 5:44
You know you’re working with players, but you know, I know you’re thinking about it in terms of other applications, other uses and, again referencing the conversations we’re having, where do you see it ultimately going? I mean, maybe it’s a big question to try to project out, but how it’s going to fit into, like you said when talking with coaches, what would be the best methods to really apply it and use it. When the wins and losses are mattering and I referenced we’ve done a project about how to incorporate them in warmups and maybe it’s like taking four to five drills that you like so your guys get comfortable using them, but then knowing how to tweak them, change them based on, I don’t know, whatever you need to work on that week or whatever strategy you’re trying to prepare for, but I guess where do you see it growing and maybe starting to fit into a season mold a coach with a team that needs to produce wins yeah, that’s a great question because ultimately, your job’s on the line with the highest levels.
Drew Dunlop: 6:37
I think, like anything, it’s a tool, it’s something that you can use along with other techniques and strategies and all of that I think about Rob Gray talks a lot about when he was with the Boston Red Sox.
Drew Dunlop: 6:49
As game day started earlier in the day would be more variability, but as the game got closer, things started going more towards what players felt comfortable with, with confidence, boosting, performance type activities where they’re trying to build a rhythm.
Drew Dunlop: 7:01
You have to find that way to fight the big battles and kind of give up the smaller things that really don’t make a difference. I would rather have my guys going into games feeling really comfortable and confident and doing whatever their game day routine is instead of just trying to disrupt that for the sake of I want to do this. It’s kind of a give and take, I think. When you look at overall within an organization, I think you’re seeing more organizations include skill acquisition specialists and trying to bring everyone to the table and make sure that from front office down, everyone’s aligned, everyone’s kind of working towards what the team identity is, what the principles of play are and then how each of those areas fits into that, so that everyone’s kind of pushing along the same way you raise a good point there, that with rob gray too, and the game, and we had a good conversation.
Patrick Carney: 7:52
Dan, you asked the question with andy bass because we all know players like their block training and whatever the new research says, oh, that’s makes no sense, or that you’re not getting the application of the benefits you would think. But but we also know that the players, if they like it to tell them, no, it’s dumb, I think you’re going to lose respect or they’re going to tune you out. Then if you’re not listening to what their needs are and I referenced back with Andy Bass, players like to get 50 shots made after practice and he gave a good example Every five have them go to at least one different spot to incorporate some variable, but it’s still mainly block, and I think that’s something that does get lost in all of these things as a coach we deal with, like when you get in, and even the greatest drill, if your players don’t want to do it, well, now, what you know, if they want that block training or whatever constraint you put on this two versus one, if they see it as gimmicky, now you’re not going to get the results. I think that’s also with having a team is something coaches need to consider about. Or as you start to work with, you notice it’s finding them what constraints or what elements trigger your guys to be competitive.
Patrick Carney: 8:54
I think we always talk about that, drew, too. This drill was really good because our guys got after it versus maybe what constraints they find a little. Nah, this is too far, this is too much fluff. And then it just the intensity nosedives and now it’s well, any drill without intensity isn’t helping the team in that moment of the season. I think is also a real interesting balance with all this stuff too.
Drew Dunlop: 9:17
Like anything, the context of where you’re at the level you’re at, that all matters. And yeah, when you’re with youth, for sure I would say, more often than not, most of your activities should probably be more freedom to explore and constraint, just allowing them to kind of figure stuff out on their own. And then, as you get to the pros, you got to have buy-in. That’s the number one thing. It’s a human element to it. You have to have buy-in, there has to be trust, and in order for that to work, both sides have to win some right. So if a guy really wants to do block reps, well great, I’ll rebound for you. I might try to switch up the passes a little bit. I’m going to try and mix it in without you knowing, but at the end of the day, in order for me to get a bigger win on a pregame warmup, I need to allow them to have some ownership on it as well.
Dan Krikorian: 10:00
There’s a drill that for us at the college level this year we kind of designed but I bounced ideas off of Drew all year which was a competitive 4v4 all the way down to one-on-one a play it down, so four-on-four to three-on-three to two-on-two to one-on-one and there was a shot clock element and there were action elements. We use it a lot for scouting this year. So if we knew a team was going to run, let’s just say like split action a lot, we would have the offense start with the split action. So in that drill, just for those listening, the shooter and we had the guy who was contesting the shot. If the shot was missed they step off and then three on three and that was a drill. I think that taking a lot of this stuff into account right now, with a constraint and trying to be competitive and all that, we use a ton this year. I know, pat, you have some examples that you guys try to do and our guys loved it. It was almost like we couldn’t do it the day before a game because they played so hard and I can explain the drill more for anybody who wants to afterwards. But the offense was on all the way from four and four to one on one. The defense in order for you to get out of playing defense, you either had to get four stops in a row, so stop everybody from four and four to one-on-one, or get three out of four stops three times. So the defense really needed a guard and the offense, you know. As the drill got going, they wanted to keep their buddies in there as long as possible. So that’s just like an example of at the college level for us. That drill got our guys going. They played really hard.
Dan Krikorian: 11:28
I always felt like we were able to shave off some of the I don’t want to say boring scout stuff, but, like you know, guys roll their eyes when you’re trying to go over a set of the other team or whatever, and we would just bake it into this play a down drill and they seem to compete and honestly play harder than if we just try to do it in some other parts.
Dan Krikorian: 11:46
That’s like Drew, you talk about the slice of the pie a lot. That was, for us, something that was a weekly part of our prep and it was offensive drill as well as a defensive drill, so we would do it until, basically, we had four groups, so we had about 16 guys going, so we had four sets of four groups for defense. So if four guys in there on defense, they would go until they got their three sets of stops or they got four in a row. Sometimes it wore on a little longer than probably one, maybe like 20, 25 minutes. As the season wore on too, it felt like a longer because our offense got better, the connections between our guys got better, so they knew how to take advantage of stuff, which was good too. So yeah, I’d say 20 to 25 minutes was usually what it took with 16 to 18 guys.
Drew Dunlop: 12:31
That right, there is a great example of you took that element, you add it to your practice and I’m sure afterwards you do whatever other activities. But that 20 to 25 is probably worth 45 minutes of actual experience and failures and successes. And all of that and those guys kind of working, you know, and talk about defensively having to play four straight repetitions on D, getting stops. I mean that is extreme right For those guys to figure that stuff out.
Dan Krikorian: 12:56
Yeah, especially when you know, let’s say, you got three stops in a row and then it comes down to the one-on-one and you’re not wanting to let down your buddies. You know you get that stop, you’re off. That’s really good peer pressure too as well. And then what I’ve taken from a lot of the CLI, ecological design stuff and Peter Lonergan talked about this on our podcast with Basketball Australia I think I grew up thinking about the dribble limit is better to teach offense, I think.
Dan Krikorian: 13:23
Lately I’ve heard and read and talked to people that taking away the dribble limit instead put like a shot clock limit and let them find solutions within five seconds instead of saying two dribbles even though that still can be helpful, I’m sure it’s still used. So, like for that drill I just mentioned, we did a shot clock limit, you know like 15 seconds for four and four and three on three, 10 seconds for two on two and a five second shot clock for one on one, and I don’t know better or worse, but seem to work for the guys instead of constraining the offense with a dribble limit. I guess drew any thoughts on the dribble versus shot clock stuff for you.
Drew Dunlop: 13:57
I would agree. I think more often than not like unless we’re working pivots and bumps and all that in the paint, we’ll take, like you know, maybe one dribble limit, but for the most part it’s all based off of shot clock, because you know what one player can do in three dribbles, another can do in two and another might need a fourth right, and I’d rather the player keep it alive. When in doubt, take a bounce, then pick it up and put yourself in a bad situation and now you have no solutions out of that.
Patrick Carney: 14:22
So that’s kind of like how we err on when we’re here in sessions is more often than not it’s going to be some kind of shot clock what i’ve’ve taken from you, drew, too, that I like, and on top of the shot clock, but then maybe also having like a one pass outlet within a one-on-one. It’s never going to be perfect, but of course, in one-on-one with a shot clock like sometimes it forces a habit of taking bad shots but at least giving them the outlet and, I think, building the awareness like I’m going to take a bad shot here, let me kick it out now. Of course, then it can’t be unlimited, but at least you’re getting a one kind of better habit out of it too with allowing that outlet pass. And then they got to try to recreate their lead, quickly get into a handoff, however you want to play. It to also maybe improve the shot quality, let’s say, is something else I’ve liked. And then just quickly, dan, going back, I love that drill.
Patrick Carney: 15:09
I know we’ve talked too about it with the play at downs. I think that’s a great example of like one for them, one for us, in terms of, like you said, we can get scout reps in so you can kind of control the first four and four, like whatever it is we’re going to work on. This Offense has to play this scenario, defense has to defend it. But then the three on three, two on two, one on two one, like that’s for them, they get to explore, they get to play freedom, you know. Or maybe you say like, hey, we got to get to a dhl, but it’s all. Again, at this point it’s like it’s unscripted, which the players love.
Dan Krikorian: 15:39
So I think that’s another great ancillary benefit of these play it downs too, with the building and kind of your scout yeah, and I guess, using that drill as an example, I know I leaned on drew, for Well, the play down stuff is straight from you guys, so I didn’t lean on you, I just stole it.
Drew Dunlop: 15:54
I stole it from Cody Toppert so okay, go perfect.
Dan Krikorian: 15:57
So that was our January 19th podcast.
Dan Krikorian: 16:00
So, circling all back. But the other thing too, like a constraint that we would use would be when we got to five on five, let’s just say for our zone defense is certain shot attempts were worth certain amounts that were deemed important for our offense and bad for our defense. So like a set shot three was worth five points, and like we would play a game to 20 or whatever, and so our defense knew you give up a set shot three in this zone, you’re going to lose quicker. Or our offense was trying to hunt those kinds of shots. Like that was another example, I think, for us, as the season wore on, of trying to use these little things that really helped us.
Drew Dunlop: 16:36
You don’t have to read a ton of research papers and all of that to get to what actually matters, with how you incentivize scoring, because you knew the principles of play for your team, the shots you were trying to get that your players could take, and you just simply valued those more in those games. Yeah, and then players played their game and they tried to find them right and I think that’s the great thing about it. So when you talk about, like, how does a coach use this stuff? Well, it doesn’t have to be a complete overhaul.
Dan Krikorian: 17:02
Sometimes it’s just sprinkling in like that yeah, you know score things, subtle little changes make a big difference drew you and I and pat I know you, I talk about this a lot is I think the next frontier for us growing as coaches is taking this stuff and then applying it to a style of play. So you want to teach principles of play and the spacing and cutting movements, all these things that are within the environments we’re talking about, where you’re just teaching players how to play basketball, but then, as a coach, then you say okay, but let’s say at the college level, I love. Let’s just say, take you know, euro, flow, motion or something where we’ve got you know on ball screens and 45 cuts and stuff. How do I then say I want to play like this and then use drills to then teach how you play? And I think that’s the next frontier that I’m thinking about.
Dan Krikorian: 17:51
Drew you and I’ve talked, drew you and I’ve talked about, pat you and I’ve talked about too is taking outside of maybe like a play it down segment, but then now full team stuff. A quick pause to say thank you to our partners at Slapping Glass, huddle, instat for all of our access to film, just Play Sports for the best all-in-one scouting analytics platform and Beyond Sports for our overseas summer tours. For more information on all of our partners sign up for our Sunday morning newsletter at slappingglasscom today.
Patrick Carney: 18:20
Correct me if I’m off topic, dan, or kind of building off what you say, with these principles of play, and just to reference, I thought we had a really great conversation with Noah LaRoche on this, especially with spacing Within this ecological dynamic, or building a representative environment, what you said. If you want the Euroflow motion, I think for me, then it’s okay, you want to build a representative environment, then what role do the coaches play? You know, and like you said, in creating these environments, but then teaching in the environments, you know, and Drew, I like to ask you, like we talked about with Brittany Donaldson, to like question asking feedback. But you know, and Drew, I like to ask you, like we talked about with Brittany Donaldson too, like question asking feedback. But you know, maybe in theory it’s like no, the environment should be doing all the teaching, and so, if you want to use your emotion, like the environment will teach you well, what role do the coaches have within?
Patrick Carney: 19:04
That is always what me and Dan are kind of falling back on, and how you maybe, drew, turn into you now think about, okay, I’ve built this environment. You maybe, drew, turn into you now think about, okay, I’ve built this environment, let’s represent whatever I want to teach, but what role do I play?
Drew Dunlop: 19:16
how do I teach within it, then, whether it’s question asking feedback or, at times, maybe then, controlling the environment more or restricting more, to develop a concept yeah, and I would add to that too is something I struggle with is okay, you have these global principles of play, but then how do you layer in individual advantage creation?
Drew Dunlop: 19:34
Right, like you got a guy that can beat any defender off the bounce.
Drew Dunlop: 19:37
Well, if he gets a slight advantage, when does he understand to have freedom to then break that principle of play globally and create, because we’re just trying to create advantages on offense and defense, we’re trying to take it away and get neutral, and those are the same questions that we struggle with daily here and it’s something that you know we’re working through, and I think you’re talking about the coach’s role in designing the environment.
Drew Dunlop: 19:59
Let’s say you’re playing a team and you know there’s a mismatch, that you can get this big moving and you can take advantage of that. So you’re calling certain actions or triggers because you know that that big is going to be brought into the play and then you can kind of take advantage of that. You know, I think that’s a big piece as well, because you have knowledge about the team that you’re playing, but also your players, knowledge within the environment, understanding their individual advantages and all that I can’t remember exactly which podcast guests it was, potentially as britney donaldson or andy bass but they talked about the difference between a competitive drill or environment versus a teaching environment.
Dan Krikorian: 20:31
But they talked about the difference between a competitive drill or environment versus a teaching environment.
Dan Krikorian: 20:34
And they talked about, if you’re going to put together a competitive environment, let’s go back to that play it down drill, where we would say as coaches, like we’re not going to stop and teach in the middle of this, like you’re going to compete to the end of this drill and the design of that drill, the constraints, all that they are teaching you in that drill and it’s competitive and if you don’t do things correctly you’re going to be on defense for a long time.
Dan Krikorian: 20:55
So that’s the teacher versus maybe other parts of practice. We would tell guys, this is a teaching drill, we’re going to stop it, we’re going to correct, we’re going to maybe after the play, before we start the next rep, stop and teach and in those situations, potentially more, I guess, more stoppage from a coach, more. Hey, what did you see here? Hey, where should we have gone versus the competitive one, where we’re not at all, we’re just letting the drill do it. So I don’t know, pat, that answers your question. Or drew, if that makes sense too, if there’s kind of two different types of teaching or drills and letting your players know which one you’re doing, so they can either just compete or know hey, we’re going to stop and teach, potentially.
Patrick Carney: 21:37
Yeah, and you’re spot on, dan, and I think what I was getting at you said much clearer than I did is, yeah, like in these teaching environments, the same way you’re thinking about how do you build representative environments, how do you build a better drill, how do you teach better?
Patrick Carney: 21:45
And I think with our conversation with Donaldson, andy Bass, it was not necessarily telling the players because, again, maybe they don’t retain it and they’re not going to listen.
Patrick Carney: 21:52
So how, when we are going to teach as coaches or we are going to correct how, we should be thinking about that too, and not only just I’m going to build this thrill and the drill will do all the teaching and you’re good at it, dan. It’s something I’m trying to get better with that question asking and how to formulate or think about questions, where I think it’s still my habit, like I know what’s wrong, I just want to tell them, but I can’t. I got to get better, just get more reps at it. Okay, how do I frame the question to get him to the answer or her to the answer that I want to convey? I think is also was a really fun conversation with Brittany Nelson, but also like the next kind of evolution too, as we grow and coaching and learn more about learning yeah, pat, you and I have discussed with each other if taking the ball, punting it into the bleachers and saying what the f are you looking at.
Dan Krikorian: 22:39
Is that a question? Is that an helpful question? Yeah, it’s a question.
Dan Krikorian: 22:46
It’s in the form of a question but yeah to your point and drew I think that’s like you and I talk about this a lot and pat you and I too just the art of how much to give when to give it off to the side, publicly, in front of everyone. I think bernie donaldson might have spoke about this really well too. As far as like asking the whole group before you narrow in on someone, because then you know, you know maybe they freeze up, or at least the whole group is thinking about it in the film session too. I think she mentioned that. So just ways to ask in ways that are hopefully helpful.
Patrick Carney: 23:19
With, again, kind of going on, your experience and I know we’ve had this conversation before, maybe on the original podcast we had with you and Jake but how do you think about correcting within these drills and what are you maybe aware of and trying to get the guys to understand the intention of the drill without just like we talked about stopping and telling them?
Drew Dunlop: 23:38
yeah, it’s definitely something that still to this day, working at can never get too good at. That starts with. The biggest thing for me was understanding how to have more clarity with the setups and the task before the drill game started. And then the second piece is kind of just sitting back and understanding when to time that Wanting to stop it, wanting to grab someone on the fly, in between wraps, man on the sideline keeping it short and then also the question part was definitely difficult because as a coach I was seeing something. I just wanted to tell them that. But are they really going to learn anything? It’s understanding how to rephrase that as a question and then being okay with asking a question and literally just like a blank stare, like they’re looking past me. So that was the learning curve. To this day I’m still working at it, but I think it’s.
Drew Dunlop: 24:21
It’s just everything starts with the more you can be clear up front on the task for both offense, defense, whatever you’re working on and then trying to not necessarily stop the play but grab guys as they’re on the sidelines after a rep waiting for their next rep and then speaking in as few words as possible. One of the things that’s brought value is asking how else could you have done that or what else could you? Or have you noticed what happens when you drive and pick your dribble up? What do your other teammates do? It’s trying to cue them on an attentional thing where maybe they’re not even picking that up, and then it may take a little bit before it sets in. But I think eventually, if you’re using the right words, I think that helps those players. Then quickly, kind of like lock in, I’m like, oh yeah, what have I noticed about my players when I’m driving up and you know I really don’t have a passing window?
Dan Krikorian: 25:12
I wanted to talk about knowledge retention, how you kind of hit on it and going back to the Brittany Donaldson podcast, where you know if you keep hitting on something over and over again. So the term was interleaving, so basically working on something, leaving for a while and then going back and sprinkling it back in. And I guess, Drew, just your thoughts and Pat, maybe from examples from both of our teams on that element of okay, I introduce something, however, you decide to introduce it, and then you leave for a while and then go back to it, and how long before you go back and what that does for retention of knowledge.
Drew Dunlop: 25:46
I think it goes with the variability side of things, where you’re just exposing players to a bunch of different whatever situations and setting problems for them, and maybe it’s a couple of times a week that you’re introduced to the same problem. Maybe you’re playing off like pick and roll and some kind of coverage, both defensive and offensive solutions. I think the more often you can get them into it, out of it mixing some other things.
Patrick Carney: 26:10
It just goes along with just building that experience with it and the confidence to understand what was successful and what maybe wasn’t successful within that, you know from past experience, you always see, like if you introduce, let’s say, a new concept in the team or whatever it is, it always they want us the first day. Or if you’re in training camp or even mid season, whatever you want to try a new thing, a new wrinkle, whatever, it always looks ugly, but it’s always like that next day when you go back at it. And this is what, obviously, brittany Donaldson, this inner leading, they’ve learned something from it and they’ve learned a way to solve it, or they know what to expect now too, which goes a long way. And then always cleaner the second day or a little bit better. And then I think, as coaches, you can find on that second day or the next time you come back to it.
Patrick Carney: 26:54
And then I think, as coaches, you can find on that second day or the next time you come back to it, it’s a little bit easier now to start to hit on stuff and start to develop or teach within it. And I think the real trick is like that first time, just letting them feel it, letting them explore or fight or struggle within it, without so much of us teaching or coaching within it. And I go back to the conversation we had. Maybe it’s really let the drill design do it. And then the second day is like now we can start posing questions, now we can maybe do a teaching segment and now it’s a competition segment. And I think that’s where the interleaving really you can see it come through and why for me it makes sense from just experience.
Dan Krikorian: 27:33
Go back to Damian Cotter we had on the podcast Chicago Bulls he talked about when he was a head coach in Australia and his best teams had just these messy practices where if you came in and watched them, it wasn’t a perfect video for some website that like, wow, this is a great practice, it was messy and he always talked about those were the best practices where they actually learned the most physical, best, whatever it was. And so I kind of go back to that too a little bit what you’re saying, pat, where learning is messy and it doesn’t look pretty all the time, but they still are. Like Brittany Donaldson said, retaining and getting better even though it doesn’t look like it all the time.
Patrick Carney: 28:07
Yeah, I think our job really has to be about when it is mess, but it just demanding the intensity, demanding the game speed that we’re going to slow it down if we keep correctly trying to teach and says, okay, great, they did it, perfect, but now it’s at such a speed that’s not realistic, they’re never going to be at that speed in the game. I think always like training with the intensity and just trying to get, let’s say, striving for the perfection but getting as close as possible, but never at the sacrifice of the intensity, even with that, even though it’s chaos and their struggle.
Drew Dunlop: 28:36
That doesn’t impair players from cutting with bad intentions or shaking up to create a passing window right, like you can do those with intent. The chaos part that’s every game right, so it’s also that.
Dan Krikorian: 28:47
Yeah, one question for you is new stuff. You’re more up on it than Pat and I are as far as stuff that you’re reading, that you’re continually trying to add into what you do Anything else like what we’ve talked about today or going back to this kind of January we have, but that you’re seeing, that you’re trying to use in your day-to-day stuff that maybe going through the rest of 2024 might happen more often or might do more often.
Drew Dunlop: 29:13
We had touched on it earlier just understanding better, and again, because we have guys from all sorts of different teams, so it’s understanding some of the more commonly used global principles of play. But, again, allowing players to then break free and use their one-on-one individual abilities, that’s something I’m always thinking about. I’m sure I’ve texted you guys both about that at some point. Just getting your thoughts, because I’m not part of the day-to-day coaching of the same group and team aspect Thinking through how can you best prepare players to come here, work on that, but then go to their own teams, fulfill the roles that are required of them and do it in a way that’s efficient, so that they’re here, they’re getting better, they’re learning, they’re developing, adapting and it’s under by the evidence, the current evidence on this note of kind of what we’re thinking about, or what I’m thinking about too and drew we’ve had several conversations on this is also like how we can maybe add some of these repetition without repetition, this variable, into the warm-up.
Patrick Carney: 30:11
You know, when you do like small group warm-up sessions and I’ve been talking with Drew, like I’ve had a lot of success with like the contact of free stuff we’ve done where it’s just providing like resistance and then having a shooter bounce off for a shot, and you know it’s something we can hit on. If we have like this 10 minute warmup chain with guards or bigs or wings, I think how we can think about priming our players for different movements, different movements, different actions, let’s say, within these small segments and to maximize the limited time we have before a game versus static three-ball shooting layups. But again, players like that, they want that. So I’m not saying we get rid of that completely, but within maybe a 10-minute segment that I have with these guys, how can we incorporate some of these things? Also, prepare a game plan is a lot of what I’m thinking about lately too, and Cody Toppert even hit on it too.
Patrick Carney: 31:02
Can we do something at halftime? And I know Drew. He briefly had a conversation. I think, though, going back to the conversation the halftime one, and even with the pregame one is like getting the buy-in from the players first, like are they really going to invest in this, or is it like you’re out there for yourself and these guys, like this coach has lost his mind, like let me just do some layups, but that’s where my head’s at too, on top of a ton of other stuff, but I’ve really been curious about that just how we can prime our players better before a game yeah, that reminded me too.
Drew Dunlop: 31:27
You know we were talking about incorporating more perceptual demands within sessions. So, instead of a player, always you know being facing, being facing the ball and you know understanding where the pass is coming from, it’s like turning them where now they have to go find it, then they have to go see where’s the defender, where’s the space like really trying to cram as many of these demands and intensity within a single repetition. Off of that we found pretty good success with. So that’s something we’re always kind of playing around with and I think, as you spoke, pat, warmups and pregame warmups are probably two of the areas that really are the lowest hanging fruit when all this comes into combining current search and ecological design within, because I just think you know you have so many of them, you have more games and you really do practices at certain levels of the game and five, 10 minutes adds up over the course of a long season.
Patrick Carney: 32:18
Yeah, the perceptual drills too, like I’ve been stealing those from you as well and I really like and like you said, it’s like something that’s like maybe two minutes they get a total of six shots, but it’s yeah, it’s just different spots. They’re moving, they’re trying to get a different footwork patterns, body balance and just like that’s like out of one rep they’re asked to do like six things on top of make the shot. And that’s what you know as far as kind of framing what we’re talking about here and how we’re thinking about this warm-up or this pre-game warm-up pat.
Dan Krikorian: 32:44
You and I, thinking about this overall, drew you and I’ve talked about this too is all this stuff. It can be daunting. I think the entry point for coaches and sometimes thinking like man, if I don’t know all of this, if I don’t totally overhaul my whole coaching to just do this stuff, that I’m a bad coach or I don’t know what I’m doing. I think that you know we’ve talked that’s not the case. Like. This is awesome stuff and each coach kind of trickles into it how they can and then they figure out what works for them and their level and their team. And we’re talking about this recently, that it is a tool in the toolkit of a coach, like the x’s and o’s known that a tool, all of this stuff, the understanding of how to use it, how to tweak it for your level, for your team, how to, like you guys just talked about, maybe just sprinkle it in here and there to help with small group stuff, as you kind of get more into it is a tool.
Dan Krikorian: 33:36
Some of these january podcasts who talked about the mental approach to the game and coaching and that’s a tool.
Dan Krikorian: 33:42
Knowing how to use it, I think combine all these things and you just add that in makes it so that everybody’s own journey as a coach is so different and what you might do in January versus February versus November for a high school or college pro is so different and you just having that feel too of maybe I don’t need to do this today or maybe they need something a little bit more and at least knowing how to do that, I think, is what Pat and I, for sure, are after on the podcast and trying to learn for ourselves and lean on guys like you and Jake with the project with the pro lane of you guys putting together awesome video series on like okay, want to work on finishing. Here’s a bunch of really interesting ways to work on it with small group stuff. So to me that’s like what we’ve been after, and what I enjoy most about this is how to grow your own coaching knowledge and use it that fits you. I think it’s a good place to end in.
Patrick Carney: 34:36
I don’t have it. Well, that’s what I appreciate most about it. I mean, like this season, we’ve unfortunately hit a seven game losing streak. And I’ll tell you we weren’t talking about drill design, but we were more talking about stuff that I took away from bernie holiday is how do we give these guys confidence? How do we put them back in a trusting mindset, how do we get them to believe that who they were the last six games has no impact on who they’re going to be in the next game?
Patrick Carney: 35:00
And it’s not like a true representative of their skill, of their ability. It’s getting back to that flow state. That’s who you really are as a player. And then we win a couple games. Then, all of a sudden, next week it’s like all right, yeah, how can we improve now with our DHO defense, our DHO offense? And then we’re thinking about building representative environments, like you said, and hit it on like that’s what’s been so fun about you know, not only January, but the other podcasts and bringing in these coaches, these experts, because you have to wear so many hats and at different points of the seasons, based on your wins, losses, you’re going to be asked to do different things, some of it on the court, some of it off the court.
Dan Krikorian: 35:37
Absolutely, Drew, thanks for coming on and kind of sharing your thoughts and hopping on short notice here today and talk about all these things, and we enjoy working with you and Jake. And for those who haven’t seen any of the stuff you guys have done, please visit, you know, slappinglass.com. Sign up for the newsletter, because some great series, especially now that we’re hitting the off season and we have more time to think about these things, we definitely suggest you try that out.