Slappin’ Glass sits down this week Real Madrid Head Coach, Chus Mateo! Coach Mateo, fresh off a Euroleague Championship season, shares his insights on his decision to switch to a zone defense in the Euroleague playoffs, the in’s and out’s of that same zone, and the trio talk player buy-in and attacking Drop Coverage during the always fun “Start, Sub, or Sit?!”
Inside the Episode
“You have to show that you are good all season, not only one day. The first two months is perfect. Sometimes I remember too many players that came and the first two months were amazing, and in the important moments, when there are problems, they disappear, and this is something that I don’t want to do. In the bad moments, I’ve got to be there, I’ve got to be the first one, and this is the way I think that you have to lead something. Not too many words, but showing with your attitude that you are going to be there, ready to help my teammates in the moment that they need to be helped.” – Chus Mateo
Real Madrid Head Coach, Chus Mateo, joined us on the podcast this week in what was a terrific peak under the hood into the inner workings of their Euroleague Championship run. Real Madrid switched to a 2-3 zone late in the playoffs for the first time all year and rode the success of the zone all the way to the title. In this episode we discuss:
- 2-3 Zone Concepts: Coach Mateo discusses the various strategies they employed within their zone coverage and the reasons behind each. Coach Mateo also provides great context into the staff discussions and considerations before deciding to play zone in the middle of their series with Partizan and down 0-2.
- Attacking Drop Coverage: Real Madrid has one of the best “Drop Coverage” bigs in the world in Walter Tavares, and we asked Coach Mateo the actions that give that coverage the most trouble during “Start, Sub, or Sit?!”
- Player Buy-In and Coaching Ego: During “Start, Sub, or Sit?!” we also dive into getting players to buy-in along with Coach Mateo’s views on what true leadership is on and off the court. Great stuff.
Chapters
0:00 Adjusting Strategies in Basketball
4:02 Zone Defense in Basketball
9:30 Effective Pick-and-Roll Defense Strategy
13:37 Coaching Strategies and Team Dynamics
23:49 Building Team Chemistry and Leadership
28:47 Defensive Strategies and Coaching Insights
36:00 Coaching Philosophy and Team Dynamics
43:28 Building Buy-in and Defensive Strategies
47:07 Wrap Up
Transcript
Chus Mateo: 0:00
You have to show that you are good at all season, not only one day. The first two months is perfect. Sometimes I remember too many players that came and the first two months were amazing, and in the important moments, when there are problems, they disappear, and this is something that I don’t want to do. In the bad moments, I’ve got to be there, I’ve got to be the first one, and this is the way I think that you have to lead something. Not too many words, but showing with your attitude that you are going to be there, ready to help my teammates in the moment that they need to be helped.
Dan: 0:44
Hi, I’m Dan Cracourian and I’m Patrick Carney, and welcome to Slapping Glass exploring basketball’s best ideas, strategies and coaches from around the world. Today we’re excited to welcome Real Madrid head coach Chus Mateo. Coach Mateo is here today to discuss the major adjustment of switching to a 2-3 zone in the Euro League playoffs, helping lead Real Madrid to the eventual title. And we talk player buy-in and beating drop coverage during the always fun start, sub or sit. Costa Rica, spain, italy, australia, south Africa. We’re excited to announce our newest partnership with the world leader and international sport tours. Beyond Sports Founder and former college and pro basketball coach, josh Erickson and his team of former athletes have built the go-to company for coaches looking to take their programs abroad. From the travel and accommodations to excursions and service learning opportunities, beyond Sports does it all. For more information and to learn why more than 650 universities have trusted Beyond Sports, visit beyondsportstourscom and tell them. Slapping Glass sent you. And now please enjoy our conversation with coach Chus Mateo. Coach, thank you so much for making the time for us today. Congratulations on a great season Last season. I know you’re looking ahead to this one already, but we appreciate you coming on and are excited to talk to you today.
Chus Mateo: 2:27
Nice to meet you too, and thank you very much. It’s a pleasure for me to be with you. Thank you so much for calling me. Appreciate that.
Dan: 2:34
Coach, we’d like to start with this and basically a conversation about adjusting as a coach game to game within a season and you guys famously now switched to running a lot of zone, specifically in the playoffs, and then leading you guys to the Euro League championship, and it’s something that you went to when you were down 0-2 in your series against Partizan and just all that went into that decision, why you went to it, why it was successful, you and your staff feeling comfortable and your team feeling comfortable to switch to something in those big games. And so we wanted to start with that and your thoughts on adjusting as a coach specifically to that zone.
Chus Mateo: 3:13
This is a good question because at the beginning of the season and the Euro League, we never thought that we are going to use a 2-3 zone to finish the Euro League being champions. At the beginning of the season, we start with our mind only thinking that we have to go game by game, having victories, to be between the first four places that may cast to play with a court advantage, and we even didn’t talk too much about zone. We got some alternative defense. It was not a 2-3 zone. 2-3 zone was an option that suddenly appeared when the 0-2 came against us. After having the court advantage, we even practiced some other zones during the year. I think that the most important thing for a coach and for our staff is to understand that there’s nothing predictable and you got to be ready to react. This was what happened in this moment. We were losing 0-2 and we got out In the second game. We didn’t have Tabares. For us it was very important. He was injured and even Poirier came from surgery. He was out for a long time, more than one month. He made an effort to play in the second game, but he was not in the best conditions. In the third game he got another injury and he went out of the playoff. We had this fight at the end of the second game that made us have some other players out, like Dek and Ouselhe. We went out of the roster. We started to think what we had to do, to do something in which we can survive from this critical situation. We started to think that the most probably is to do something that can protect our unique five that was Tabares in the court and protect him, because everybody is going to attack him with a pick-and-roll. Everybody is going to attack him in a one-on-one. Probably the only situation that can be protected was this zone that kept him in the middle, because we never allowed him to go out to the corners. We kept him in the middle and everybody all the traffic of the office of the other team went towards him in a place where he can be safe or foul. It’s not too big guys that can’t pop against him and can attack him from outside. This was what we thought at this moment and, watching how it is going, all the players we thought that it was a good idea because only we have two force we have Yawu Sele out and we need to use Gavi Dek that was injured in the third game and Hezonia we use him as a four. We need to keep these two players more than 30 minutes in the court. This was the main idea to start the one-to-two-three zone, but there were some other situations that were good to think that this was going to be a good idea. Firstly, we were losing 0-2 and we had to do something different. We had to make the opponents think something different to attack Tavares. For us, it was very important at the moment because if Tavares goes out, we don’t have any other big guy to supply him. We decided to protect him with this zone, but we were watching that we need Tacho Rodrijev and Serge Jules and Rudi Fernández to close the game, because they can’t play for too many minutes, but they know how to finish the game. This was another good idea. I think that was good because the result was good to keep them on the court. Tacho, serge and Rudi were very important for us because they know how to run the zone. They don’t have to play men-to-men or defend men-to-men against opponents that can attack them too, and this was the option to protect all of them. And we decided to alternate this man-to-man and zone in order more to protect Tabares and Azzonias, as big guys as our only big guys into Tacho, sergi and Rudy, allowed to reach the end of the game without fouls and this was good because at the end, this alternative defense man-to-man and zone made that the opponent stops a little bit and start to hesitate how to attack zone. It was not so easy for them, the surprise in this moment and probably they start to hesitate a little bit. But it was more than to protect them, because we think that they are going to find solutions against zone for sure in the games that they play. It was more in order to protect us of the Tabares fouls that can make us to be struggling in the most important moment of the season. This works very good. Players understood very well how to run these two drizzons. We used it full court, sometimes after free throw. We used it to half court, sometimes not with a strictly criteria to do it on the side, out of the bound, on the base, out of the bound, on the half court after timeout. We did some many different calls and this was good because we made it a little bit unpredictable, this zone.
Patrick: 8:32
Coach, maybe before we get into the details of the zone, I’d like to just hit on the point you mentioned that it can breed hesitancy in your opponent. With the success you guys had this season, and even if you look at the NBA, with the success Miami had, what is it about a zone that just stymies opponents across all levels in college and your league, nba, in high levels?
Chus Mateo: 8:54
I didn’t think that this can work so good during the pay-off and in the final four and even in the final. To be honest, it was a surprise for me too, but we need to use something because we were losing 0-2. We need to change something and probably we are not so used to think that our opponents at this level are going to run a zone and probably where we spend, as coaches, a lot of time to attack against men to men, not so many against zone, and probably this is something that makes the opponents to stop a little bit on the offense In our zone. If you want to talk about some details, we decided to defend the pick-and-roll, send them to the side. We didn’t allow the middle, we send them to the side because this way we can use the bar as a stopper in the middle and we didn’t allow the pick-and-roll If it’s too high. The pick-and-roll was too high. We decided to go under because we think that sometimes, in my opinion, there are not so many teams that are able to shoot at the very beginning at three-pointer, going out of the system and taking this decision against zone, because probably coaches used to tell them hey, let’s move a little bit of all and we will find an open shot a little bit later and there are not so many players that are able to do it. And we accept this first shot because if it’s too far we decided to go under. But most of the pick-and-roll we defend sending to the side and sending towards Tabares. Once the players went with the dribbling against Tabares, we decided to split up with the outside players against the opponents and even sometimes, when we see that the possession is counting down and there are not so many seconds on the shot clock, we decided to turn it into man-to-man. We decided not to follow the cuts to the strong side, we decided to bump, we decided to move, we decided to make the ones hesitate a little bit because sometimes it seems like it’s an open shot but the defender is counting towards me and this reaction of the defender made you to hesitate a little bit and we saw in the faces that it was working and it was good because we didn’t lose too many rebounds against zone. We keep Tabares in the middle. Hesson made a great ending of the season, with rebounds too, and it was good because, of course, if in the first offense they scored a three-pointer, probably the confidence goes down and we have to decide to retire this defense. But it was not the case and we start to get confidence with the defense and even the opponents start to retreat a little bit, and I saw in their faces that it was not so easy to attack against this alternative defense. I saw that they are hesitating. I saw that they’re not only partitioned, barcelona too, and Olympiacos too, and I saw that it’s not so easy to understand that now we have to play against men-to-men, now we have to play against zone, but they are allowing me to shoot, but not in this case, but not in this other case. We have to go to fill the corners, but the defender is coming. He was up and 45 degrees and now they are coming because they are bumping. Good, I think that it was good for us to understand, and this defense made us to have some confidence, knowing that we are going to play the semifinals and the final.
Dan: 12:16
You talked about having confidence in the game when you saw that the opponents were struggling against it. How about in practice, when you were putting the 2-3 in and you were discussing with your team and your staff? This is what we’re going to do. What was the confidence level like? Did they believe it right away, or was it something that you had to work through as a staff and a team before you got to the floor too? Of course?
Chus Mateo: 12:36
we have to fix too many things from one game to the other. But at the beginning when we start to think that this can work, I tell my staff and we as a staff tell the players that this can work. We make them to believe on that. But they believe from the beginning because for me, with this team, it was easier to make them believe in a tree zone that in a full compress at this moment, without only one big guy or one for me and this three veterans that we talk about them before, and it was easier for me to make them believe in something like this, that not another different defense that needs more energy and not so many attention like this to treat. They know how to run it. They run it in the past too many times. They know the mechanism of this defense. So for me it was very, very easy to convince them that this is going to be.
Dan: 13:37
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Patrick: 14:40
Sticking on practice and preparing this zone when you’re putting it in. What was the biggest concern? You mentioned ball screens. Was it short corner? Was it high post? I guess what were you as a staff most worried about in terms of we have to find solutions or find rotations and talk with the guys on these certain types of actions.
Chus Mateo: 14:58
I was concerned about too many things the corners, I was concerned about the pick at all. Defense, I was concerned on the high post, I was concerned with rebound. Everything Make me to hesitate if business gonna be good. But once we start to do it and we start to solve the many different situations start to give me confidence that we are gonna run it. We start to explain the zone with who used to keep the two men and the three men in the same side and the one man and the four men in the same side too, and most of the times the players start to Understand that they got to start in this situation. I have to bump right here. I have to run to the corner. In this moment. I have to call that somebody’s running to the opposite corner. It was easy for them to understand their job once we start to run it because we didn’t do in the season and we start to run it from this moment it was good because we never thought that we are gonna use that to do is on New, really to win the champions. And we start to fix it after the games and in the walkthrough because we don’t have too many practices from this moment until the final, the moment in which we start to use it till the final. We didn’t practice too much. We talk too much about it. We saw too many videos and we talk more than practice. No time to practice. We got too many ACB leagues in the middle and we got too many travels in the middle and we have to react immediately. We don’t have time. We need to talk too much. Of course. We need to fix too many situations. We have to pay attention because there is no other option to practice. There’s only the games, only the video, only to talk to them too many times. And the players are amazing how they understand this because it was not easy for them to understand it. A few seconds left and we can turn it into men to men and once we are in this situation and so maybe we can be matched with a small guy and touch or league it with the five. So this situation, we have to be ready to box out. And it was good because one of my main concerns was that all the opponents get a lot of good players that can go to the offensive rebound and maybe they are not gonna score with the zone, but they are gonna score with the offensive rebound and is bad for the confidence.
Patrick: 17:21
You mentioned a couple times the bumps and then also that you wanted to keep to bars in the key. If there were situations where, let’s say, the ball was swung or skipped to a two side of forty five in a corner and that low man was gonna have to bump out or pick up the ball in the forty five.
Chus Mateo: 17:37
Yeah, especially after the second game, that partisan works very good using three different offense, if I remember, three different offense with back screens and some flares or back screens to demand that is in the corner to avoid that he goes and we start to talk about this and we start to talk about the bumps. Not every time we can use the bombs because of course the ball moves very quick, we can bump and if he’s at the end of the possession we decided to cross from the man that was on the point. But this is not something that happened too many times. We decided to practice. We decided to talk about what will happen if I can, and there are too many shooters that we can leave and someone is coming from the other side and we don’t want to follow the cat and he fills the corner and we decided sometimes to cross to the corner, but this didn’t happen too much in the games. In the games was more difficult for us to prevent the shot from the corner when there were some back screens, demand who was in the second line, because this make us to go with the five if he get caught on a peak, if this guy get caught on a peak, we decided we have to go. But it was the moment to see in the video that they punish with some shots with the back screens and really was perfect in the situation because he knows how to prevent and he was over the man who is setting the peak. There were some other players that are not so veteran, they don’t recognize so good the situation that got to watch the video. We have to work on the video to prevent this situation that punish us a lot from the corners. It was so good to understand that a player of this level can change from one game to the other. We can fix, even in the same kind of defense. We can fix too many aspects of this. It was good to understand that without too many practices and the video we can fix it. That for me it was amazing and you know this is not course as a coach.
Dan: 19:41
Earlier you mentioned that your three veteran guards, that they just knew how to win in late game, they knew what it took to win at the end of games and that you wanted to save them to be able to play more minutes down the stretch, and I wonder what it is that they do specifically that impacts winning later in the game that veterans know how to do during the son.
Chus Mateo: 20:02
Of course, we got too many up and downs and we know how to finish the game with them, with this three guys at the end of the game. But if they play at the beginning of the game, they’re gonna be with power, they’re gonna be tired. They need to be alive and specially touch to many moments of the third, the fifth game against partisan and the final. He was amazing. How it was amazing because he was magic and too many moments delivering assistance and making us to relieve and it was great to know how to make us to play, especially because he was fresh. But 30 July and really, fernandez made us to keep competing as we want, pushing the players, pushing the coaches to keep fighting until the end and make us and all of these three guys make us to believe until the end. So the only way to make them. I got so many good players that most important thing is to be them, that they are useful for the team, and we were able to understand that there are some players are gonna start the game and they are gonna do their job and there are some other players that gonna finish the game and everybody get the role that the team needs and it was so good to see how you that didn’t score any point in the final score, as he used to do it for years and years. It was good to know that he was so good mentality to do this in the right moment. Same like Tacho that was playing the final very good until the end. Or same like Rudy that was defending amazing in the zone. Of course, the other players, without Tavares, without Sonia, without Ellie and Diage that starts the game and was not important due to the decision, but at the end it was amazing job. Or the others, or even Adam Haga or Nigel William all of them were important and especially, all of them understood which was the role at the end of the year.
Dan: 22:00
Coach, we actually want to move on now to a segment on the show that we call start, sub or sit, and so what we’ll do is we’ll give you three different options around the topic, ask you to start one of them, sub one of them and sit one of them, and then we’ll discuss your answer from there. So, coach, this question has to do with when a player is not buying in to some part of your team, which one of these three options is the most damaging to your team? So your start here would be this is the most damaging option when a player doesn’t buy into certain parts of your team start, sub or sit. Option one is when they don’t buy into their other teammates, so they don’t trust or get along with their other teammates. Option two is they don’t buy into their own role on the team, or option three is they don’t buy into the coach or the coaching staff, whatever it is that the dynamics between the coach and the player.
Chus Mateo: 22:51
Oh, I think the first one is the worst for sure, when they don’t buy into the teammates. In my opinion, this is not something easy to solve but of course, in my I like a lot to talk with the players, I like to be very close to them. So I will try to talk with him, I will try to solve it, trying to understand why the situation came, and I will try to make him to understand that probably doing this or having another, different attitude is can be solved. And my opinion is very important to talk with them, is very important to never lie, to be always honest with them and try to talk, because for me is very important the chemistry, the chemistry of a team to get good results, and there is no good chemistry Never could be good results.
Dan: 23:37
Was that different for you this year, or more difficult, as a head coach, as opposed to the years when you were an assistant and you’re able to maybe have a closer relationship? Did that change at all for you as a head coach?
Chus Mateo: 23:48
For me. I got eight years being assistant coach of Pablo Lasso and Real Maldiv, so most of the players know me very well. I was very close to them, they know how I work, they know which is my behavior with them and, of course, right now, everything changed because I got to make decisions. It’s not the same to be assistant, where you’re going to give advice to the head coach and when you are the head coach, you got to make decisions and, of course, nobody is going to be. I can’t have all the people happy with me because I have to make decisions and sometimes it’s not good for the people that play less or play in a different world that they want to play, or this kind of things. For me, it was very easy to this change of job. Everybody can be coach, but it’s not the same to be assistant and to be head coach. The responsibility is so big, especially in a club like Real Madrid, that when you are head coach, all the guns are pointing you because you are responsible right now. And for me it was very easy because I got very good people on the team, people that made me to be this change, to make it easy. They know me before and I know them before. I know that sometimes I have to treat them and for me it’s very important as a coach in Real Madrid to don’t be a problem. The coach, in my opinion, in Real Madrid, get to understand that there are so good players and so many stars that you can’t be an star. I think that I can be an star. I have to not to high profile. I have to do my job and try to solve them their problems, instead of creating problems. Try to solve them to many situations with my knowledge or with my attitude or my behavior. This is what I think that in Real Madrid, you can be a star, like maybe other coach in other places. Real Madrid got too many stars and the main role is for the players, not for the coach.
Patrick: 25:59
You mentioned the importance that you place on yourself to build relationships with your players. I would like to ask how you think about building team chemistry and, more so, the relationship player to player, whether it’s on the court or off the court. How you build team chemistry?
Chus Mateo: 26:14
For me, the most important thing is to be honest with them. I have to tell them my thoughts, what I think about them, what are my expectations from them. Which is going to be the role? Of course, during the season everything can change, but I can’t lie to them. I can tell them, hey, you are going to be the star of this team, and then suddenly he is not playing. No, I got to be honest. I got to play and to practice day by day and tell them that think only in tomorrow. Today and tomorrow, no more, because this is so long. In my opinion, the most important thing is to show with the example that you are the first one that is working there every day and that you are not going to lie to them, you are not going to fail them and try to solve the problems that is going to be during the way. There will be too many problems and probably are some problems that are personal problems that of course, you got to be close to them in order to be able to be available to solve it too. But for me it’s important that diary work you know what I mean Day by day is very important and they have to understand. You have to show that you are a good Olyssus Not only one day. The first two months is perfect. Sometimes I remember too many players that came towards one team and the first two months were amazing, and in the important moments, when there are problems and really they have to be the first that are trying to solve it they disappear, and this is something that I don’t want to do In the bad moments. I got to be there, I got to be the first one, and this is the way I think that you have to lead something not too many words, but showing with your attitude that you are going to be there, ready to help my teammates in the moment that they need to be helping.
Dan: 28:05
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Patrick: 28:45
All right, coach thank you for your answer there. Moving on to our next start subset, we’re going to go back on the court, onto the defensive end, and we’re going to ask about your drop defense and give you three actions your opponents would run against you and which one was the most concerning or troubling to solve when you were dropping Tavares at the rim. So start, sub or sit. Option one the short roll catches and opponents playing through the short roll. Option two is opponents playing through the pop. Or option three is just knowing that they had a penetrator who was going to constantly attack the rim and just get on the rim and go after Tavares.
Chus Mateo: 29:25
Of course the pop is the worst for us and especially if there’s a player that can pop, can put it on the floor too. We got too many problems with a small luggage with partisan, because he can shoot from three and he can put it on the floor. Sometimes even with Barcelona with Salli, we got too many problems with the pop against us or against Valencia with Dublevic. These kind of players for us create a lot of problems because Tavares is a special guy that he needs to be comfortable in his comfort zone and we of course work on some different situations to solve, with the team difference, this option. I want to tell you now that I can tell you that this is the worst situation for our defense when we dropped the lattice.
Patrick: 30:15
When the big man who popped could put it on the floor and dribble, why was that even more troubling? What were they doing with the dribble that then caused, I’m sure, the next action to be even harder for you guys to defend?
Chus Mateo: 30:27
It depends because on the scouting we can too heavy to go to close out and stop the right hand, or we can consider to allow him to shoot the first one. Don’t go too far in order to see if he’s in a good moment to shoot or not. If he’s called the first one, this can make us hesitate. It depends, not always is the same. Too many times we use the side with perimeter players to help Tavares once he needs to go out and we help and recover from the side, or if the big guy is able to put the ball on the floor. We try to collapse a lot in this moment because probably he’s not so good passer but we got in front of many good players that can pass the ball too. And Tomic is very good on a short roll but he’s not so good on shooting free. He can score free but he’s not so consistent but he’s very good on a pass. And on Tomic we don’t use to have too much with the outside players In a short roll. We try to recover with Tavares inside and we allowed him sometimes to shoot from a high post, but we don’t allow him to pass because he’s so good passer that we prefer to play one-on-one against Tavares from a high post, so it depends, not always the same.
Patrick: 31:46
On the short roll. If you do want to take it away, what are the ways? You’ll send a bump or you’ll have Tavares position himself. How will you try to take away the short roll? If you want to take away, let’s say the pass and not even allow it to get to the short roll.
Chus Mateo: 32:00
We always bump from the weak side and it depends on the man who is driving in the pick and roll, because we drop back more or less Tavares and the reaction to defend the pop of the short roll is not the same and it depends on if the man who is driving in the pick and roll is a good shooter or if he’s more a penetrator. We make Tavares to retreat more. We want to defend this pick and roll situation not only with Tavares and the man who is involved in the pick and roll. We use a lot of corners. We don’t want to defend the corners flat. We use to keep very high the corners and diagonal, watching the man who is in the corner and watching the ball, but never flat, and we used to lift it because this way I think that we reduce a lot the space of the pick and roll action. And, of course, we got to keep a very important activity with the other three guys that are not involved on the pick and roll. My opinion this is the key point not only the two members that are involved on it. The activity of the other three is very important and of course, we need to help and recover, to bump and to reduce this stance between the bump and the man that you leave to bump. It’s very important to prevent this situation.
Dan: 33:21
If a team is popping on an empty pick and roll so there’s no one in the corner, how do you think about solving a good pick and pop guy where there’s just a two in the pick and roll but there’s no one there to really help from the corner?
Chus Mateo: 33:34
This is another problem for us. We would try to make it good, but this is another problem for us because sometimes we decide to send to the side instead of allowing the big guy to pop to the side. Sometimes we decide to go under. It depends on the man who is driving For us. It’s not easy to defend this situation with a big guy so big like the others.
Dan: 33:58
Coach, you’re off the start sub or sit hot seat. Thanks for playing that game with us. We enjoyed your answers, coach. We got one last question before we close the show, but before we do, once again, congratulations on a great last season and we really appreciate you coming on the show today. This was really fun for us, so thank you, oh it was my pleasure to be with you.
Chus Mateo: 34:18
I cared about you a lot and I hope that my answers were good. My aim is not so good, but I hope that the answers were useful for somebody and thank you for allowing me to go into your program.
Dan: 34:32
Thank you, coach. It was terrific, so thank you very much. Coaches are going to love this. Coach. Our last question for you that we ask all the guests is what’s the best investment that you’ve made in your career as a coach?
Chus Mateo: 34:44
Of course, the passion. This is not an investment. When I was a kid, I went to too many places around Spain and around the world to watch practices of other coaches. To be close to other coaches not famous coaches, but share too many ideas to go to a bar with a beer in the middle of the table and to draw some diagrams. To learn too many things of other coaches and teach them all the things that they can learn from me and, of course, the education that I received from my parents. They make me. They make me a person that I think is important to be good for your teammates and for the people that are surrounding you. In a game like basketball, in which you have to share too many things with family that is your team, is very important to be ready to share too many moments good moments with people that get your same goal.
Dan: 35:57
Alright, pat boy, that was enjoyable. You and I were just talking a little bit right before hopping on this, just about we did a ton of research before this podcast and going back through the Euro League semi-finals, finals, the series before when they decided to go to the zone, and you know we watched a lot of film and talked a lot about it ourselves and that was really fun to just get inside, look and have an inside conversation and just I think you and I both walked away from this with a ton of even more respect for Coach Matteo, just his willingness to share and discuss everything. So really enjoyable conversation.
Patrick: 36:32
Definitely I’m with you Huge respect to him for, of course, winning Euro League, but for his willingness to come on and share with us and be so open. And it’s been a summer zone for us with Coach DeRafael and looking at different 3-2 monster zones and our project we did with Coach Gallo and the Miami Heat. So we’re really looking forward to this and just getting into like why zones are still such a great adjustment and enjoy the conversation around just the whole adjustment and again his thoroughness of why they needed to do it and he was honest in saying it wasn’t so much what they were down 0-2 so they needed to change but it was more so how he needs to protect his team in this moment with some suspensions, some injuries, and I thought it was really cool just going into how they’re trying to protect Tavares and I know we’ll get into it just the whole conversation about saving Sergio Lul, sergio Rodriguez and Rudy Fernandez that he needed to save those guys so they could finish the games and give them the best chances to win. So it was cool just kind of getting inside his mind in terms of why they made this adjustment. Like he said, they make maybe the first couple 3’s. It’s a bad adjustment and they’re out of it, but it worked well. The team partisan in this case started to miss and they wrote it for 5 straight wins into the Euro League Championship. So it was a really cool conversation. I had a lot of fun.
Dan: 37:49
Yeah, I had a ton of fun too and I think you and I were just talking real fast before hopping on. Just we enjoyed hearing how he thought about things and sort of his coaching demeanor, and I think we’ll get into this a little bit more later when we talk about some of his views on just not being a star as a coach and all that. I thought that was really great. I won’t jump ahead, but before heading into this conversation I was really interested and wanted to ask him about the buy-in process with the staff and the team before making this major overhaul to go into the zone in game 3 and then keeping it in a major, major way all the way through, like you mentioned, in the championship, and if that was easy or difficult or how that whole thing went, because anytime you stand in front of a team and say, hey, we’re going to make this pretty big change, it can go either way. Obviously he had the players that were ready to buy in, and some of it was also the fact that they had injuries and suspensions and stuff and it was leading them towards this zone. But then he mentioned there wasn’t a lot of practice time. There wasn’t a lot of time to just sit around and work on it for 2 or 3 weeks, like they had to just put it in and apply some concepts and then go with it. And then it’s amazing to us just like he mentioned too it can create so much hesitancy in the opponent, especially in these big games where teams are used to running their offense, their flow, their pick and roll, all that stuff, and all of a sudden you’re just a little bit more hesitant with shots and where they’re coming from. And I’ll kick it back to you in a second, because he talked about bumping versus not bumping. And it’s really an interesting thing to talk about, especially because now we know the ending and we know it worked. You mentioned they were to come down and banged home 2-3s and they got out of it different story, but they didn’t and it worked and so, yeah, really interesting.
Patrick: 39:30
I was surprised too. He mentioned they never worked on it until I think the circumstances dictated that they tried this zone. We were for sure, thinking, of course I would imagine that at some point you had it in their back pocket or I discussed it, but surprising that it really wasn’t something he was even thinking about beginning of the year that they’d run. Of course he said they had some alternative defenses in mind.
Dan: 39:50
Well, it reminded me a little bit of when we had Coach Sergio Scariolo on with the Triangle 2 or the Box of 1 and basically don’t practice it too much because your players will lose confidence and the element of surprise it’ll be better in the game type of thing. So maybe that’s the trick is, just don’t practice your zone defense. Do less yeah, do less no.
Patrick: 40:11
I think my last point too, when we can start to move into some starts of SIT. It really showed how well he knew his team and especially with, like I mentioned, trying to save Lule Rodriguez and Rudy for the late game and the whole buy-in conversation we had. Yeah, that really came across in this instant, this situation of deciding to go zone and the benefits that it would provide his team given the circumstances. So, yeah, I was really impressed with just his having a pulse on his team and what they needed 100%.
Dan: 40:40
Yeah, and it does bleed right into the start of SIT, which I think we’ll just hop then right into that first one, which was the player that’s not buying in to some part of your deal, whether it’s teammates, their role or the coaches, and you and I were discussing this question for a decent amount of time trying to come up with how to ask it, because, as we’re recording this still early preseason and getting to know your team, getting to know roles, you’re putting all that stuff in and, as he mentioned, it’s tough when someone just doesn’t want to buy into some part of that whole process and you’ve had players that they love their teammates but they don’t love their role and what the coaches are doing. So, going back to Owen Eastwood creates clicks and they do their own stuff within it. I think, talking through his answer, it was great hearing what was most difficult for him, which was he started the teammates, but what it did lead nicely into is just his thoughts on coaching really and his place within a team, and he mentioned at Real Madrid there’s enough stars and that he doesn’t need to be a problem and I think he just really got a sense there of how he views coaching and his role and what, ultimately, is the most helpful for a team from his standpoint, and I just thought that was a really cool moment to hear him talk about that.
Patrick: 41:57
Absolutely. I wrote down solve rather than create problems is what he felt his role was, and to not really ever shine above anyone else. I’m with you I thought I mentioned it to you before we came on here that I thought this part of the conversation is clear like this is what he hangs his hat on as a coach and really prides himself on, because I thought he spoke obviously really well about it and I thought he spoke with a lot of passion behind it. I really appreciated his thoughts and I liked the part too when he mentioned it and we’ve all seen it or players that come in the first two months they’re great, but then the troubles hit the ebbs and flows of the season and they’re nowhere to be found. And so him saying he always wants to be the coach who’s leading in these moments, he’s going to provide solutions, and that actions over his words is what he really valued in these moments of critical time or not buying in or losing streaks.
Dan: 42:48
Glad you brought that back up because I’d written that down to about the first two months of the season, or even just the college level, from even the first two weeks to a month of the season where you’ve got guys that come in whether transfers or new players or whatever, and they look great and they got a lot of energy, but then something hits, some sort of adversity, whatever it is, or even if they’re good players, just seasons are long and it can be a lot. And I think that’s why coaches, we love veterans so much, because there’s a track record of how they act throughout a season. And speaking from the college level, I know, like the transfer portal or older players freshman are hard because you don’t know how they’re going to react midway through the season or new players to your program you just don’t have that. And what he said is he’s had that with these guys for a long time, as he was an assistant first, then going to the head coach, and so he had the relationship, he knew how they would act and then, flipping back to the first bucket, he had the trust and the cachet and all that built up with them so that when he went to them to say, hey, we’re going to zone now we’re going to go to Serbia, and we’re going to zone and we’re going to win, and they’re like, yeah, they were bought in, they’re ready to do it. I mean, I think that’s where you see how he is as a coach, allowed him to make that big decision and for them to buy in and be comfortable as a team to try it and even explaining to the guys the roles I keep referencing.
Patrick: 44:00
He wanted his vets to finish the game but on the other side of the coin it’s the young guys, the hungry guys, telling them the importance of their role. But their role is you got to get us to these moments so we can get our veterans in to close the game, and that’s always not easy to sacrifice the crunch time. These guys will get heavy minutes and then the old veterans they were saving were getting lesser minutes but playing the most important part of the game and I think that’s 100% not easy to do and a very delicate dance and he did it phenomenal.
Dan: 44:27
Go back to the Owen Eastwood conversation when we were talking about difference between lions and wolves and sheep. Yeah, and he obviously knew, like especially late game, that those three veterans were the lions. They know how to close, they know how to win games and how to make big shots. And not saying that the younger guys aren’t lions or people don’t know what the heck I’m talking about can go back and listen. But it made sense Actually I think about it a lot now is those guys knew how to win, but those other guys were still super important to helping get the team to that point where the lions could take over and win.
Patrick: 44:58
I think where this question came about is when we were thinking about it. People are starting their pre-seasons or thinking about their pre-seasons, and I do think the pre-season is a safe time. Let’s say You’re not losing games. Everyone feels good about yourself, everyone’s excited. So, again, the reference back the first two months is easy, and I think this is where we wanted to have this conversation how you use these first two months to build buy-in, like we said, put deposits in the bank, knowing that when the times are going to get tough, you can then start to demand, you can start to maybe make a couple withdrawals, get on players, and not everyone’s going to be happy. So, again, just as we kind of were thinking of this question, I think that’s where it was rooted in. You know, we knew in our research that Choose Mateo does a phenomenal job at building relationships and creating an atmosphere where everyone is happy to be at and is glad to be there. And they’re stars too. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it’s real. These guys are best players in the world. Yeah, it’s not just some small-town club by any means. For sure.
Dan: 45:52
Well, moving on to the other one, which I know you were chomping at the bit to ask because of how much film watched on Tavares and his drop covers and how good he is, and so I’ll kick it back to you on your takeaways on the drop defense.
Patrick: 46:05
As he mentioned why they played zone, it was to protect them. So I think it was fun to ask when you’re not going to play zone and you are in man, they’re the ones. How are you trying to protect them against these three different attacks the short rule, the pop, or just guards who are going to go after them for either fouls or the big man to clean up on offensive rebounds? Everything was interesting because I’m super curious about it. I mean, tavares is such an elite defender and he mentioned just the pop and he mentioned then a pop and a guy who can really dribble Thought we were going to turn it into a pop to DHL. Long DHL conversation. Yeah.
Dan: 46:36
I was hoping, but it’s okay.
Patrick: 46:37
It didn’t get there, but we understand the problem we can get from God. So I mean, I appreciate all of his thoughts there and I liked too when we got into the defending the short rule conversation and he just started to get into the most important thing, the activity of the three players outside of schematics, just being active. But he did mention having corners, not getting flat on the corners, lifting up high and just shrinking the court, you know, make it look like there is no or take away any short rule window there may be to protect Tavares.
Dan: 47:07
What I think you and I find really interesting about watching film of Tavares is flipping it to the offensive side, because when you have someone that is an elite defender as Tavares, it forces the opponents to run the best possible thing they can think of to take advantage of that. You’re seeing opponents, whatever they run against Tavares in that drop. They’ve thought a ton as a staff on the best way to attack him. So you’re seeing the best tactics because he’s the best defender in that drop and he’s such a problem. It forces the opponent to adjust, and I always like looking at and talking about, okay, where on the floor they run the pick and roll. What’s the angle, what are they doing after a pop, short roll, whatever, and then he’s an empty side, all those things we kind of got into. And I just think as a very nerdy in the weeds discussion, it’s just interesting because obviously if it works against Tavares, then it’ll probably be successful against someone that’s not quite as good as Tavares in the drop, and so it gives you hints, on the offensive side too, of what’s hard to guard.
Patrick: 48:07
I like to the little cat and mouse game he mentioned, when maybe it is a big who can pop and shoot and that they won’t send Tavares on the first one and see if he makes it or not and if he misses, maybe we can keep trying to get away with it a little longer and make our lives easier, rather than just immediately start going to whatever it’s. However, you’re rotating or making Tavares run closeouts when he hasn’t necessarily proven it. That game or I liked your question going back to locations when it was an empty side ball screen and of course they can ice it, but just sometimes maybe we’ll just go under and see if the guard’s willing to shoot it.
Dan: 48:42
Really good stuff he misses on your end, or stuff that we wish would have gone a little deeper on.
Patrick: 48:47
Perhaps it would have been nice, maybe it starts upset, as I mean I’m happy where all the conversation ended up, but to maybe hit on offensive side of the ball is all pretty defensive heavy, but I think rightfully so. No, I agree.
Dan: 48:59
I would just add we touched a little bit on it but the late game stuff and closing games and what it is about great players and you know, as we said, the Lions he didn’t, but as I’m saying it here, more into that a little bit. I think, whether it’s with another coach, maybe we go deeper on. But, like great veteran players, late game and I think how that affects your coaching, the trust that you have in them, whether it’s play calling, whether it’s just all the things that can happen late game, and I think that’s an interesting conversation and he brought it up about how good they were. And then obviously the great stuff about saving them, but always interesting, the late game stuff, especially with really good players.
Patrick: 49:36
I agree the conversation we’re looking for is that I think there are a lot of intangibles. I mean, obviously, play the better skilled players and let their skilled take over, but I think there is an intangible side of it that plays a heavy role in and I think in our conversation with on Eastwood just the fearlessness or the willingness to take that shot or make that player yeah, make the pass is not innate in everyone, is not something players are willing to risk all the time. Yeah, because we’ve had a bunch of conversations, obviously late game coaching and decisions and all that, which is also interesting, but like players and what they do, I think would be maybe something for the future, and just Mateo talked about with especially I think he mentioned Lulun, rudy Fernandez just their competitive edge, I think, is something that he really valued out there in the late game moments and just knowing that those guys are competitors and they’re going to push their teammates to compete, which sometimes I think we take for granted, but it isn’t always the case in late game moments for sure.
Dan: 50:31
So Well, we again thank coach Mateo first time and all those thoughts, and wish him the best of luck this year and the path. There’s nothing else we’ll start wrapping this up Sounds good. Thanks everybody for listening. We’ll see you next time.