Grant McCasland on Winning Teams, “No-Middle” Defense, and Investing in People {Texas Tech}

Inside the Episode

“Gib Arnold was the head coach at the time and they had a team that could have won the national championship, and we lost. And I just remember walking away from that going, ‘I don’t care what the scenario is, going into the season, we’re going to prepare to win a national championship’, and I meant that, and that changed everything for me because there was more intent and purpose. It wasn’t about how do I prove that I can coach. It wasn’t about what offense are we going to run. Honestly, it was like let’s look at this group of individuals and let’s look at how do we win the last game of the season.” – Grant McCasland on building a championship mindset

What a fantastic weekend it has been on the podcast after receiving a highly insightful interview from newly-hired Texas Tech MBB Head Coach, Grant McCasland. Coach McCasland has a long history or success at multiple levels as he joins the Red Raiders and we dove into his thoughts on: 

• Investing in the right people and what truly wins
• ​Elite Defenders and their impact on a team​
• And we talk early timeout usage and “No Middle Defense” during the always fun “Start, Sub or Sit!?”

Chapters

0:00 Valuing People

3:55 Winning Culture Through Belief and Competition

10:39 Building a Winning Team Culture

20:10 Building a Strong Defense

22:05 “Start, Sub, or Sit?!”

26:51 Improving Defense Through Disruptive Ball Guarding

30:12 Defensive Mindset and Tactics

41:57 Personnel Considerations

44:51 Power of People

50:00 Wrap Up Conversation

Transcript

Grant McCasland: 0:00

Gib Arnold was the head coach at the time and they had a team that could have won the national championship and we lost. And I just remember walking away from that going. I don’t care what the scenario is. Going into the season, we’re going to prepare to win a national championship, and I meant that, and that changed everything for me because there was more intent and purpose. It wasn’t about how do I prove that I can coach. It wasn’t about what offense are we going to run. Honestly, it was like let’s look at this group of individuals and let’s look at how do we win the last game of the season. 

Dan: 0:38

Hi, i’m Dan Krikorian and I’m Patrick Carney, and welcome to Slapping Glass Exploring basketball’s best ideas, strategies and coaches from around the world. Today we’re excited to welcome newly hired Texas Tech head coach, grant McCasland. Coach McCasland is here today to discuss the foundations of winning and what he truly values on and off the court Elite individual defenders and we talk no middle defense and early time out usage during the always fun start, sub or sit. Costa Rica, spain, italy, australia, south Africa. We’re excited to announce our newest partnership with the world leader and international sport tours. Beyond sports Founder and former college and pro basketball coach, josh Erickson and his team of former athletes have built a go to company for coaches looking to take their programs abroad, from the travel and accommodations to excursions and service learning opportunities. Beyond sports does it all. For more information and to learn why more than 650 universities have trusted beyond sports, visit beyondsportstourscom and tell them Slapping Glass sent you. And now please enjoy our conversation with coach Grant McCasland. Coach, thank you very much for making the time. I know you got camp going on, practice going on new program. We really appreciate you spending some time with us today. Yeah, dan, thanks. 

Grant McCasland: 2:20

Pat, good to see you all Coach want to dive in with this. 

Dan: 2:24

Historically, programs that you’ve taken over, you’ve been able to go in and win, and we’d like to really dive in on what is valuable to you, what actually translates onto the floor, into wins and losses, and you’ve done it multiple programs and now that you’re taking over the Texas tech taking talent, i guess aside a little bit what is important to you when it comes to actually winning on the floor? 

Grant McCasland: 2:47

Yeah, this is an easy answer it’s people, and I know that sounds simple, but it really is. I think if there’s an area that you have to take extra time on, it’s hearing people talk about what’s important to them and then trying to piece those together as to what it is that you want to do together and how you win, and I think it just changes every second and I know that that sounds difficult. But who you add, i think you have to reevaluate what is next and who else can help on this journey to fit together. And I think one thing And coaching that we all want is we all want talent, and you said it, but I think there’s components to winning that are the group of people that you have together and how they fit together. And that’s a puzzle that I think you’re always picking up different things and want to get clear on how you put people together that do really believe in each other and believe in winning And I hate the references of believe just because of the soccer version, but I mean, that’s been my journey since I started. You know, when you come up with core values as an assistant, you’re like okay, when I get to be a head coach, these are my 10 pillars, or these are my five things, and I’m not smart enough to remember many, but it’s like believing has always been a big deal to me, and part of it maybe because I was a five, eight and a half point guard. That literally was not any good. I was not good, i was a solid competitor. Compete in anything wasn’t a great score, really wasn’t a great passer. Efficiently, anyways, it was just. I was a competitive junkie and I really thought how do you get people to believe in each other was really like the component. And so we’re kind of a believe, give, compete, three things here at Texas Tech and at North Texas it was, you know, believe, serve, compete. But we’re going to change it up a little bit, coming here at the top of the list, the Texas Tech. But I do think how do you find a group of people? and that to me is winning. It’s like the group and how that all fits together and I do think it changes. You can’t just say how many. Take these 10 guys every time, and maybe you could, but what happens if the ninth guy doesn’t want to come? then what do you make sure is the next component that fits? So I try not to get too far ahead of myself. I just love being around people that really want to win to. When I hear that in their heart and I hear other things first, it’s difficult and I love the grit factor of people to, so it’s like winning when people talk about it and then when people have some natural grit to one way or the other. Than those two things I feel like are the starts to winning coach. 

Dan: 5:20

Coach, if I could ask you about a stop in your past and that was when you took over as a head coach at the junior college level and what you maybe learned or still take from that experience where you have to quickly build a winning culture with guys that are coming in and out maybe for only a year before they’re moving on and how that translates to now where you take it over new program and trying to quickly get that winning culture and those winning people involved. 

Grant McCasland: 5:45

Yeah, the blessing of being a head coach at 26, which turned in at 27 that year at Midland Junior College. It was one of the best junior colleges in the country as far as basketball is concerned, historically anyways. Like Spudweb, mookie, blalock, 82 won a championship, national championship on the walls in the town’s. Great, the college is great and the expectation was that. But honestly, we’ve changed. Offence is like four times during that season. We tried to pressure full court and jam the outlet. That was a big deal for the previous head coach. I tried to do it. We didn’t last the whole time doing that. It started to morph into basically running. Rip Hamilton was playing at the time and we started running a bunch of stuff to get one of our guys, jd Lewis, that ended up going to the University of Texas on a scholarship from Amarillo, just up the road here, and JD had no division one offers out of high school. But in conference play in the Western Junior College athletic conference he scored 42 and 45 and back to back games. I think when you ask that we got to the end of the season and one real poor belief that came out of that season was I wanted us to be good but I went into the season kind of one, proven that we could win and coach as a person, and that was more about me. And then when I got into the year I was like just how do we survive this practice? and one of our former players that was with us just said those practices are like blood blasts. They were competitive. I think it said a lot about what I value. I value how do you compete every day? so I aired on the side of we were going to make it anything. We were just going to make it like a competitive five on four, pressure the ball, like how is it just going to be active? and then as the season went on, i realized that we needed to score And ironically Mark Adams was in the league as the head coach at Howard Junior College and then Steve Green was the head coach of South Plains, dennis Helms at Odessa. Like these veteran coaches that really had a core identity. And so we tried to do a bunch of different stuff. But we got to the end of the season and we qualified for the national tournament And it was a journey of like hey, practice hard, then we spend all our time in five on trying to run sets to get JD shots. And it really got to the end of the season and we went to the national tournament, won the first round, beat the number one team in the country, lost on a tip dunk at the buzzer in the second round. So there was only eight teams left and it was to see us I, a team that was loaded Give Arnold was the head coach at the time and they had a team that could have won the national championship and we lost. And I just remember walking away from that, going. I don’t care what the scenario is. Going into the season, we’re going to prepare to win a national championship. And I meant that in my head. I was like just happy to be at the national tournament, like how did we get to 20 whatever wins, how did we get here? And that changed everything for me because there was more intent and purpose. It wasn’t about how do I prove that I can coach right. It wasn’t about what offense are we going to run. Honestly, it wasn’t like let’s look at this group of individuals and let’s look at how do we win the last game of the season, then let’s put this together where that gets to that point. And then, two years later, we won the national championship and you know, i think it changed everything. And so that believe word really became core and central to me, because I wanted our guys to believe that we were going to win a national championship at midland, and so we took over in Arkansas State. I walked in that locker room and told them that and we took over at North Texas. I said this is crazy the way you hear it, but we will compete for a national championship at North Texas And at the time we were 338th in the RPI in the country out of 351 Division 1 teams or whatever the number was. And few guys laughed. A couple of them were asleep, and this is true, and one of them is a dear friend of this day, dj Draper, who was a walk on and he believes that we can win a national championship at North Texas. He ended up being a walk on that played 40 minutes in a game for us And so because of that belief in that heart, it gives a guy like him, who really does invest everything he has, you know, the same perspective. So that’s kind of where our journey started in that first year as a head coach dictated everything, moving forward as to what our heart’s attention was when we started the season. 

Pat: 9:53

I’d like to ask about competing, that you want competitive guys. That’s one of your pillars, or what you’re going to always emphasize. But how do you teach the sacrifice part of it? 

Grant McCasland: 10:02

When we took over at Arkansas State, we decided we were going to make everything competitive. The layup lines because I hated watching layup lines. Everybody does it kind of. You know what do you do to start practice. So literally, we put cones out and the guys would go dribble around the cone and go make a layup, and the next guy would go and you would just make as many as you could to start practice. So once warmup hit, then it was like we’re making layups, but how many can you make in a minute where you’re doing it as a team? And that was the way we warmed up. But we made layups And so then we kept score for each team. So each team to start the day would have eight guys that you would be with the whole day, or seven guys, or six guys, whatever it was. And so any drill we did, you had a winner for that drill, and then at the end of the day, the team that won the most drills or whatever. The next one would be closeouts, and if you got scored on on a closeout or you did something incorrectly, the other team got a point. We just scored everything I’m talking everything from the moment we started And at the end of the day, the team that won the most drills, they won the day. So you had a day winner and then you had a cumulative drill winner. So if you were on the team with Dan today, maybe you weren’t on them with them tomorrow, but if you wanted an individual drill, we kept total. So we knew how many drills you won. So when we got to about a month into the season, you know what guys found out what team they wanted to play on. We would walk in and they would have their name on the board of what team they were with. And there were. I’m not joking, there was a guy that had we had had 21 days of practice and I think he was three and 15. And when people would walk into practice and see him on their board, they’d be like no coach, i ain’t playing with him, man, i can’t win any games. And so I think what it does is that it kind of just starts tying you to when you say the competitive, that there’s a winning component with competition, that playing hard and maybe fouling is not the answer, right, and then maybe trying to go score but not making the right play. And so there is something of giving of yourself that’s associated with winning, where everyone says that, like you know, just cause you’re playing hard doesn’t mean you’re playing smart. You know you have to merge those and how it looks unselfishly to give yourself for the team, and so I do think there’s a balance to it and you ask a great question. The other thing is how do you get them to communicate with each other and how do you make that an emphasis? And you know the whole deal, like how many times do you give each other five? you do the counting or you count every time that happens. You have someone keep track of that. Or, like every time someone makes a great play and someone passes it to them, you stop practice and make sure that everyone’s communicating that, and I think you fight for that every day. I really do. I think that’s a huge component to the selflessness, the giving component, like I give to our team. How do you do that in a way that’s in competition is you do have to bring attention to it as it’s happening all the time And there’s different ways to do it. We all know that. I think those are two examples that we’ll fight for, where you’re just always making those guys communicate when someone makes a great play, and how you lift each other up, and it’s easy to say it’s more simple just to go through practice and then not say anything to each other but have the expectation, it’s still not the same. Where you have the expectation, this is how hard you play And this is what you do. But if they’re not communicating with each other and they’re not telling each other like great pass or whatever that may be, or picking each other up, i think you lose an aspect of it that fast forwards that real togetherness and the selfless part of competition. 

Dan: 13:33

You talked about at the very top, that it’s the people that help build all this, and I wonder, from your experiences, who you think or feel are the most important people to get right in your program as far as helping build this out, as far as your best players, coaches, people that really have the most impact, and when you get those right then everything else can kind of domino from there. 

Grant McCasland: 13:54

You’re asking some good questions, nan. Our managers, i think, are the most important component to our team And I’ll give an example. So and you know, i think you can put GA’s in that category, i think you can put you know, depending on how programs look, and you know this there’s the players and coaches get all the attention. But I recruited a guy named Jared Hollis at North Texas, as hard as I recruited anybody, and now he’s going to be at Kansas State with Drain, dallin and Tang, which is awesome. But he was a part of four consecutive championships And I went to Navarro College and went there to watch Gali. I wish I could remember his name. He went to Stephen F Austin and was the big guy that played for them when they beat Duke and then played the NCAA tournament. So I went to watch him and recruit him And there’s a guy that starts over here taping ankles I’m not joking Start practice. Then he was at the scores table and then he was doing towels And then what really caught my eye was they were running sprints and one of the guys didn’t touch the line and he went and said something to him. The guy nodded his head like he knew who he was saying And then he went and sprinted harder and touched the line. I was like there’s something different about a manager. That’s a trainer, that’s a student that has the authority to say something like that. So I went up to him afterwards He said, coach, i’ve actually always wanted to go to North Texas And so literally I talked to him every couple days until we got him on campus and we gave him some money to help be a part of our program And there’s an article on him. He was like the protector of culture at North Texas. You can look it up. Jared Hollis is his name. But honestly, because they’re in the locker room every day and they can tell guys how to be treated and you can tell a lot about a team, because I could go, trust him and hear his heart. And I will say this we did a 10 minute shooting drill every day to see who can actually try to make a hundred and 10 minutes, and you could be only one ball and one rebound. So one manager rebounder and one ball and one guy. And he had to try it. So you know the deal If the ball goes through the hoop, then the manager’s not running all over the place. You got a chance to make it, but if the ball is running all over the place, the other X factor is can the manager really move and can he pass? So they’re always trying to get the one manager they can do it. Well, well, jared couldn’t pass when we got him because he wasn’t a basketball guy, he actually just was a trainer And I say trainer like tape ankles trainer as a student at Navarro. But he would run all over the court fast, but his ball he couldn’t have. It was weird. Like you know, those guys that don’t play basketball, you know you can tell like gotta can play, picks the ball If he bounces one time, you’re like he can play, and the guy that he can’t play, he couldn’t pass. Well, he got to where he could really pass. Well, no one would ever pick him because he couldn’t pass and they couldn’t get 10 minute shooting and make the drill in time. Well, he learned to do it. So he wasn’t a basketball, he was just a people like winning, like what does it look like? He got winning And then we taught him basketball. Now he wants to be a coach. I’m telling now he can coach post play, can coach rotations. He would coach on the sideline more than coaches would during games. And so I think those guys, because they have such an interaction, they also have a hard heart, they’re always giving, they’re always doing things for other people, and I don’t think you can involve those, empower those guys enough to where they have an authority to speak life into your program in a real way And then, in the end, everybody respects everybody and everybody believes that everybody’s important in order to win, and there’s no better way, i think, to do that than have student assistants and managers that are a key component to your team. 

Pat: 17:19

On that note, and we talked about a little bit with how you track who wins and loses in practice. But how are you tracking your culture on the day to day? Because you also said with people it can change from day to day. So I’m just curious how you’re taking kind of stock or inventory of the health of your culture. 

Grant McCasland: 17:34

We’re just around them so much now, and I think you have to have constant, direct conversations as to what you see and always communicating what you believe wins. I just don’t think you can be around them enough, talk to them enough. And it’s not even basketball, you know it’s like how do you walk in a room, how do you approach the trainer room And you know they’re interacting with literally like custodians around our place. Like when I got here, i went and met with custodians because I was one growing up. That was my first job. I cleaned toilets in the fifth grade and empty trash, and I think there’s a lot of people that impact your program and winning. And I don’t think you can ever stop having conversations about life, because I do think it’s bigger than basketball, and I think guys start to respond to you because they start hearing you say things that are actually impactful that don’t have anything to do with whether they make a shot or whether they can guard somebody. And that’s where it starts and that’s where it ends with me. We’re just always talking about ways that we can get better, ways that we’re living out our purpose, ways that we can be better husbands, fathers, friends. Yeah, i just think there’s a big aspect to the daily that that’s how you impact what it looks like when you get on the court, because they know you’re not messing around, right, whether it’s just they’re getting used for basketball purposes. I think they feel like a depth to who they want to be And that translates to winning. I mean, one of my favorite stories is the Ish Wayne writes the Royce O’Neill’s. Those guys are talented players, but what allows them to be on winning rosters and always get better and always play more than that was my time at Baylor. I can give you thousands of personal examples. But, more specifically, players that maybe didn’t play in the NBA, but maybe people didn’t think they had elite talent, but they always found a way to impact, winning and play the most. And those are the guys that knew how to fill gaps when they saw them in different areas. And it’s like how do you get them to recognize those gaps where they can step in and be something to somebody that’s bigger than hoops? And so you ask how I monitor that? I think it’s just on the daily basis. You’re always talking to them about ways that they can find ways to improve something in their life or somebody around them constantly, and it’s not just when you walk on the court do you jump style, because I think they see through those. Okay, he just wants me to be good so that he can get another contract. It’s just this weird interaction that starts to be just basketball related, and I think the more you can add depth to it in all areas, the more guys respond to you on the court in a real way. 

Dan: 20:10

I believe at the beginning you said that the three characteristics I believe, give and compete, but that before North Texas it was believe, serve and compete, and I’m wondering about the switch from serve to give and why you substituted those for each other here at Texas Tech. 

Grant McCasland: 20:28

Yeah, great question. There’s two fold to this. One is I love both terms in regard to my own heart, and I think if you look at the model of Jesus and there’s a biblical verse that said he came to serve others, not to be served. And I think in my own heart, an easy way for me to see that is there’s opportunities to give things that I have in my own heart And I think it’s a more practical way to maybe say it and a more practical way for people understand. So you know, if you’re going to give maximum effort, if you’re going to give the ball up in transition, it has kind of a real practical way of looking at it. You know, if there’s someone that needed something, then you’re able to give it to them. Just that whole visual of it, i think, is something that I think is a little more tangible to grab on to. 

Dan: 21:20

A quick thank you to our newest partner here at Slapping Glass, one of the best tech companies in the world of sports, huddle. As many of you know, huddle extends an array of useful products to coaches, from their auto-tracking camera, huddle Focus, live streaming tool, huddle TV, wearable athlete performance tracker, wimoo and their newest offering, huddle Instat, an all-in-one data powerhouse platform that combines advanced tagging with the global film library. For more information on all that’s offered with Huddle Instat, visit Huddlecom slash Slapping Glass today. Thanks to Huddle for the support. And now back to our conversation. Coach, this has been fantastic so far. We want to switch over now to a segment we call start, sub or sit, and so, for those maybe listening for the first time, we’re going to give you a question with three options on it. We’re going to ask you to start one of them, sub one of them and sit one of them, and then we’ll discuss from there. So we’re going to kind of go on the court here with you for this first question. Beforehand, pat and I were talking about you’ve had one of the best defensive teams statistically the last couple of years And when it comes to defensive considerations, as far as what you think about when you’re building your defense, what your defense will connect to. So I’m going to give you three different things when you’re thinking about building your defense, what the ultimate result you would like to be at the end of that possession, and then how I guess you would think about building it from there. So start, sub or sit. When you’re building your defense, are you considering option one turnovers, trying to force them into more turnovers. Option two would be defensive rebounding, so basically structuring your defense so that you’re on the inside to be able to blocks out defensive rebound. Or option three is shot spectrum, so constructing your defense, so you’re trying to basically force certain types of shots by your opponent. So start, sub or sit in your preference for building out your defense. 

Grant McCasland: 23:17

I was like, so put it would be like guard the ball, because if you can guard the ball, then eliminates all other problems. I would think it would be the last one you said first, which is how you force shots. To me it feels like one That’s really an aware team. I would think if you can do that, they have a lot of awareness of where they are on the floor, who they want to shoot, where they want them to shoot. That would point to that specifically And you know this, it’s really hard to turn over really good guards and teams, And so maybe that would be a part, a component to it. But in my mind it says that you know, if your team knows what shots you’re trying to shoot, then you’re probably going to be able to do the other things well. And then I would say defensive rebounding second, and turnovers third. So we’re going to go start forcing shots or getting shots that you’d want the offense to take, sub defensive rebounding and sit turnovers. 

Dan: 24:11

Love the answer there And we realized these are all things that good defenses do, so fun part of this little game for us. I’d actually like to start with your start and you’ve, like I said, the last couple of years I think. Number one or so, defensive efficiency, and you mentioned guarding the ball and that kind of solves a lot of these things. How do you build those defenders to be able to guard the ball with whatever you’re going to do on the other parts of the defense? 

Grant McCasland: 24:36

All transparency. I worked with some of the greatest coaches in basketball. I mean that intentionally, thankfully. I’ve known Ross Hodge for a long time and I’ve got a chance to work with some great people. Y’all mentioned one of my buddies. That’s been on, jeff Linder. We actually were that first year when I told you, one went to the national tournament as a head coach at Midland. Jeff was an assistant with me So we worked together. So that’s the cool part about this whole journey. And when you’re asking me specifically about how do we build defenses and what you want to do and garden the ball been a packline guy for a majority of the time, except for when I felt like we had the best talent and one year that we won the national championship, there was a guy that did not play in our first three scrimmages and then we went to Dallas to play in a super scrimmage and he didn’t play in the first three but we could not guard the ball. So I made a sub and we had a team that had like literally 10 division one players on it. I subbed a guy in that was a red shirt that did not start on his high school team named Adrian Van Buren. We called him Scooby and put him in the game and he changed everything because he could do one thing guard the ball Like literally could hawk it and cause major problems. And I found really quickly that that impacted winning for that team. So he ended up starting and playing on that team that won a national championship and he did not play in the first five games of the season. And then, when we had our best season in schools history at North Texas and we won 26 games, we had JJ Murray, whose dad actually ended up playing in the NBA, which I had no idea it was, but Joel Murray that played at Long Beach States, his brother also, and JJ changed that whole team. He was a walk on for us and we were playing at Mississippi State. We were getting beat. I’m like, forget it, i’m done watching this. We can’t guard the ball. I told Ross Hodge and I’d watch JJ guard Ryan Willridge and Javion Hamlet every day in practice and he could defend those two guys at least. And Ryan Willridge started at Gonzaga after he left us and Javion Hamlet was player of the year And he could defend those guys the only guy that could cause problems. So I told Coach Hodge, let’s put him in the game, i don’t care. And then we never stopped playing him and that team won 26 games. And then the next year we went to the NCAA tournament and beat Purdue with him playing on the floor. So I really mean this. And we also changed how we guarded the ball and where we forced it and got that from Mark Adams and Coach Hodge and myself both had to coach against Mark Adams And we were so packline heavy that we didn’t impact the ball enough to where it disrupted the defense, and so I think what we realized was just guarding the ball was good, but we needed more disruptive, and that’s how we had the best teams and that’s how I felt like we got better. We started forcing the ball and that’s why we started siding it And that’s why I think the side defense that Mark integrated here at Texas Tech was so impactful And they’ve had the number one defense in the history of defense in the Ken Palmera was that team that played in the national championship game here. So I think guarding the ball and I learned that young in that first year and then how that translated to every team we’ve ever coached But I think dictating where the ball has to go on the floor is the level up to where you can be elite, like not just guarding it where it’s safe and you’re always keeping it out of paint which there’s some effectiveness to that but the disruptive component of it, where it’s not necessarily full court trapping but it’s just like how do you dictate where the ball goes, really is what changed the level of our ability to do it and the switchability of Mark’s defense is where you rotate, you get them on the side, then people are comfortable in rotations and those rotations are scripted. Even though they feel chaotic, it’s really scripted every day where you know where you’re going and you know who’s helping from the rim and you’re not helping out of the corner and you just have specific rotations that are dictated by how you defend the ball and how you start with the ball. So I think the ability to guard the ball is really key, but then our ability to change and disrupt the offensive player. That that’s where our defense went from being a really good defense, where defensive rebounding was the key to being a great defense, because it did lead to some turnovers and opportunities on the other end.

 Pat: 28:51

The previous examples where you said you played the walk on because you knew he could guard the ball. It obviously makes sense if you have two, three multiple guys who can guard the ball. But what impact did that have on those teams and those example, when you were just putting in one guy who was able to guard the ball? out of that, change your team’s dynamic in those situations?

Grant McCasland: 29:09

Great question. I think the point of attack and you know this if there’s a point guard that can get in the lane consistently, you’re in trouble, like that’s the one thing that really. I mean, if I could pick one thing not to play against, it would just be the dynamic guy at the top that can get in the paint when he wants and then he can step back and make threes. And the instincts of having a guy that can go guard the ball, and y’all know this. We played against Jelly Walker and I don’t know those people that have watched him play, but he’s really crazy dynamic and make threes off the balance, can pass, can get in the paint. He’s extremely electric And we asked Jelly Walker at the end of the season. He came to us and he was like the one person I hated playing against was JJ Murray And that was the guard. I told you. There was a walk on force that kind of changed that season for Mississippi State And what I think it allows you to do is to know, going into a game plan, that your team he’s the one guy that your team has confidence in that consistently can cause an elite player. Problems in one-on-one situations, cause a lot of the great defenses and great offenses turn out to be like one guy in the middle of the floor and you got to defend him on one possession and it determines the outcome of the game. I just think everybody wants the offensive guys, and how do you put that on there? But if you look at it from a defensive mindset and this is what I loved about working with Ross Hodge we would get to the end of the games with like 10 minutes left in the timeout and Coach Hodge, we’d be up by two with 10 minutes to go. And Coach Hodge would say this to our team and say we have enough points to win the game. And like who says that with 10 minutes to go and you’re only up two? you know what I mean. Like that’s your mentality, like we got enough points to win the game. And like everybody’s looking at you like, no, we don’t. But when we played Wisconsin, i think we held them scoreless maybe for the last nine minutes of the game in the NIT semifinals, and our guys like legit, we got to the huddle and he says something like that. Our guys like believe it, like we can keep somebody from scoring for nine minutes of the game. But if you have that one guy, cause you know your team can play great defense but just if a guy starts rocking at the top and can go score, it’s a bad feeling, it’s the demoralizing feeling because your team plays great defense and then the one guy can just score on you by himself. I think that elite defender brings a different mentality, like they can’t even do that if that’s what we have a, without having to just go trap them and get the ball out of their hands with these elite defenders? 

Pat: 31:32

Is it a skill that they possess, or is it more of a mentality? 

Grant McCasland: 31:36

I call them ninjas. They’re ninjas, they’re basketball ninjas. It’s both one of them And we were just laughing about it in the hall. If you go look at Ken pump, they have I don’t even know what significant contributors, major contributors I don’t know the order of it, but you get to the bottom and there’s nearly invisible. That was JJ Murray. Offensively it has him as nearly invisible, but he was literally the most impactful the guy on our team. He was the best defender, he was the best leader, he was the hardest worker And I think they’re savvy for the game. One is there Instinctually. They’re elite in regards to their feel for the game, but their mental toughness to know that their identity can be tied to something that’s not has to do with the basketball. They’re on a different level with their grit and toughness. That’s what I told you from the beginning. Like if you talk about winning or you’ve got a different level of grit to you, that’s who I love to coach, right, i mean that’s what I’m looking for in those communications. And the ones that are kind of flighty and want to just talk about I mean it’s not terrible. Like everybody needs to be great offensively, but like, do you have some substance to how you compete, and it seems like those guys can always find a way to get better and impact winning, even if they’re nearly invisible on a rating. 

Dan: 32:55

I got a quick tactical follow up on the no middle because you had mentioned in your answer a little bit about being more packline at times in your past. correct me if I’m wrong, but I think a little bit with the no middle is you’re sort of living with being in rotations a bit more and knowing where they’re coming from, versus packline. You’re kind of trying to stay out of rotations a little bit more And I guess just philosophically, you as a coach, knowing if you’re going to run no middle, going to be living in closeouts and rotations versus packing in, and how you think about that when you’re building your defense. 

Grant McCasland: 33:25

We’ve experienced the gamut because we went from packline in 2019 to side defense in 2019-20, which they couldn’t be more ends of the spectrum in regards to other than full court pressure. I mean, you can’t change anything more significant And where we’ve landed on it is the switchability and the rotations in the side. defense really has to improve, because our first year we actually gave up a really high 3-point percentage because we didn’t understand the gap integrity on the side and finding that balance as the ball moves off the side into that middle third, what you’re really willing to give up in jumping on a side and how high up you want to be on a side. that, to me, is when the ball is really on the side side, free throw line lower, extended and get real excessive and I think the way you position yourself. but as we’ve done this, we felt more pack line in that middle third, unless it’s a ball screen And that’s where I’ll tell you I think we made our greatest advancements is our ability to make sure, because it’s when that ball comes so fast down the middle of the floor when you think you’re siding but really you’re opened up too quickly And those rotations happen at an angle that really puts you in some binds unless you have a lead length where you want that. we didn’t have a lead link there for a little bit, so we had to figure out how to find that more pack line mentality in the middle third and figure out ways to be disruptive on the side and merge those concepts in a way that fits our roster And the footwork is the middle third. when he does make a move, that you’re trying to move backwards as opposed to moving the way he moves, and so you’re always positioned real tight. when you watch that team that played the National Champion’s share period, texas Tech, you wouldn’t even think they were a side team when you got to the end of the season because they use their link, their gap integrity. guarding the ball was so efficient. I mean, they got Matt Mooney to guard the ball. He was like one of the best on ball defenders and we play them. his last game at South Dakota. We’re at North Texas and I would have lost a lot of money figuring that one out. But his gap integrity, his link, his physicality you could tell that they had spent a ton of time literally understanding positioning, but the effort was there and they still got him on the side and they still caused rotations. but in that middle third I mean you almost would have thought it was pack line if you watch their teams. I mean it wasn’t super aggressive up on a side. There was a lot of thought that went into it and they’re savvy. that those guys played with was tremendous. But I do think the rotations in the side defense if you learn them, it makes it simpler that when you are in rotations, honestly it is like beautifully scripted and almost feels like it was scripted, but it’s not. those guys just really know how to move in space and understand the timing of flying around and how to get back into guarding the ball In a way that doesn’t give up open contested threes but still doesn’t give up straight lines where you want to. It’s really I think those rotations that we learn to be in really helped us in the end. But I think garden the ball in a way that was done intelligently it was really the answer to it in the middle of the floor and not just being haphazard with the way you defend on a side Tying the shot spectrum to your side defense. 

Pat: 36:47

What are the shots you’re willing to give? 

Grant McCasland: 36:49

up anything that’s contested inside the art. You know it’s not paint touches, you just feel like you’re going to live with them. Maybe there’s different places on the floor and as far down as you can push those toward the baseline, even the better, and those lead the baskets. and so You know I think you can just probably draw some angles on the floor that if you can get these shots in these areas with contest and you’re probably winning that ball That’s why the side defense is so good you can get it over there and keep it over there. in the middle of the floor is a danger zone for scoring and for playmaking. So I think it’s specifically that simple, to be honest. 

Pat: 37:23

Our last third subset for you has to do with your views or philosophy on timeouts, but specifically which one of these situations would cause you to burn an early timeout. Option number one stop a run. Option number two would be to maybe extend a run. Keep some of the guys that are fresh. Give the guys a breather if you think you got a unit that’s really playing well. Option three would be to reinforce the game plan. If you feel maybe you guys aren’t sharp on something you had talked about, you got to bring the guys together and reinforce it. 

Grant McCasland: 37:53

I’m clear on this and I’m starting reinforce the game plan. I’m subbing stop the run and I’m sitting extend a run. I don’t know if I’ve called five timeouts to extend a run of my life, unless it was like the championship game. And I’m looking at, like coach Hodges, we’ve been together the last six or seven years and we’re at the end of the game and we know that the possessions are limited and you know you need to set your defense and you know if you can just find a way to create that energy for that side of it, then you do it. But like 100% reinforced game, i’m an I’ll burn timeouts. First possession of the game. I’m quick to pull those. I don’t go into the game thinking that. So when you say this, it’s more of a confession if you will First time a guy, if we know he wasn’t supposed to do it, instead of like going, bring him on, we go, it’s going to be okay. I’m like no, this is going to be straight wheels off for this time out, like this is going to be not happening. And then the stop the run part. We’ve probably made that a part of you know just feeling the defensive mindset that we are connected to. You know the offensive flow of someone and that’s always got to be disrupted. 

Pat: 39:01

What is the threshold where I think they’ll figure it out? or let’s give it one more possession versus call the timeout. Let’s take it. 

Grant McCasland: 39:07

You know it’s funny about these games and I’ve been blessed to be able to actually be a head coach from a young age, which you know that experience is amazing. But the referees almost tell you when you’re calling the time out. You know what they know. They’re like looking at you like you know, or that’s why I like officials like Doug sermons. You know like he’ll just be running up and down, but if he feels like the run needs to be stopped, he almost stares at you as he runs down. Tell you, call it Those guys that are experienced like. I don’t know about how many games you’ve been a part of, but I’ve been a part of so many that I’m going to look at you until you call timeout because this feels like a time you should. Bro, it’s funny, but that’s where experience I do think is a blessing and I wish I could tell you scenarios that I’ve said hey, this group needs to fight this one out, this group needs to stay connected and this court group of guys really does understand what it is and you don’t feel the concern of it. And you know the game and I will tell you this I’m usually more willing to live with it in environments where I don’t feel like the offense is scoring or something’s happened that is difficult to defend, that you know, this is not a constant breakdown of just momentum. They’re making some more difficult ones. So you just almost cheer them on like, no, this is the fight, this is what we wanted, this is what we got. And they look at you and you see that The deterioration of your defense no, we’re not fighting through that. This is going to end right now. 

Dan: 40:39

With your timeouts? do you practice your timeouts? do you practice how guys sit, where you’re going to sit, who brings stuff over me as far as like the orchestration of a timeout, and ninety second versus sixty second versus thirty second, so that way, when it gets to the game, you’re not wasting time with where guys are sitting and who’s bringing chairs and all that stuff. 

Grant McCasland: 40:58

I really respect and I mentioned a lot because we work together and I really love working with him was Ross Hodge. He’s funny because he would do this naturally, when we started scrimmaging, he would go sit down. This is like our first year, like why is he sitting? down and then I realize that after our second year together, he was sitting in his seat, where he sits, during the games while the scrimmaging was happening. What a smart dude. There’s a lot of humility. I think that comes with understanding that I don’t have all the answers as a head coach And I don’t need all the answers. Like you can really learn from other people and that’s why I love empowering people and telling them you messed up and that I didn’t do this right. So I love saying stuff, even like to the team man. I love coach Hodge. He’s so brilliant. You know he’s like this is what he’s doing during practices And almost some people would think he’s being lazy. But really and you know, ross, he’d sit with his legs crossed with his arm around the chair during games and I’m like I wish I could do that, but that isn’t quite work. But no, i think that’s brilliant and we do make that a part of our first year. We make that a part of our scrimmages. In regards to where we said I don’t do it enough, i’m going to be honest, like I should think through that better and be more intentional about how that gets set up. We have specific places on the floor that we do set those out and when we do have scrimmages, we do have managers and we do have our team go to those places and set the benches up when we have live scrimmages. It does make me think that we should do it more often. Any time we do go up and down, it would be a great way to teach, even if it’s a stop, score stop or three possessions that you’re doing. It makes me think that that’s something that we should consider. Doing. More is coaching from the sideline having teams come talk to you in bench huddle format. If you’re going to take longer than a minute to communicate, i mean that would make sense. 30 seconds timeouts are more like what we always do. You’re standing around and everybody’s like 20 people standing around you as you’re trying to communicate. So I would think our 30 second timeout practice is really done well. That intentional part I love that about working with great people and brilliant minds is he thought like that. It made me think we need to do this. So I would start. When we went scrimmage, i wouldn’t sit by him, because we were usually kind of coaching the same time, but sit at the opposite bench and you know I’m standing up on the side but have that more sideline perspective and have them come that direction, as opposed to standing at middle court and communicate and good question. 

Pat: 43:24

My last question just has to do with extending a run and you said you wouldn’t take the time out But say it is in the first half and you got a unit that’s really going well, how you just think about we’re gonna let it till it’s over and then we’ll get them out, or is I’m gonna extend, i’m gonna try to catch it early before, let’s say, they start to dip and you can get your subs. And I guess how do you just coaching through extending a lineup? 

Grant McCasland: 43:43

I do think you’re asking a personnel question, and this is what I’ll tell you. I’ve learned we have guys on our roster that if you Empty their tank in the first, whatever run you leave them out there, they will not finish the game. Well, and so it’s a personnel deal. If I feel like that, it’s rolling. But we got guys that can empty their tank and then really come back and we’ll live with it. But there are guys that I honestly don’t think that you can empty their tank that early in the game And I’m not willing to sacrifice any run, and so maybe the time out is something that I would consider in the future And then stick with that lineup, but I’ve never had that as a part of a philosophy. Patrick, you must be trying to like dig in on this, because this must be one of your new policies. 

Pat: 44:27

Yeah, to basically your point. I’m really curious when you extend a run early but at the detriment of burning guys for the second half, and I mean unless this runs gonna push you up by 20 or something, but if it just gets you to 10 12, with you know 15 minutes left in the game, it’s probably gonna be close again and having guys still fresh for maybe those more important minutes. 

Grant McCasland: 44:48

Yeah, that’s an interesting thought I will tell you in regards to that. Okay, i’ve aired more on the side of playing a smaller rotation at North Texas This is previously in Midland Junior College in Midwestern state. I’d like 10 man rotations. On our best team You can get 10 guys going through the possession. I’ve never even would have thought of this, but when we took over the program in North Texas and you maybe feel like you have better Components in certain lineups, you try to keep those guys out there as much as you can. We had Ryan Woolridge playing 40 minutes a game several times But he could play the whole game and really never empty his tank. It was unbelievably remarkable how good he was doing it. Just watching Dusty Maze team this last team because we’ve been in the league The whole time together except for one year, so we’ve competed against each other in this year. He trusted that team from the very beginning. He would sub him and sub him and sub him and play 10 guys and sometimes I’m like why is he playing this guy, you know? and then all of a sudden they would make a huge three in the corner. And I think to your point like there is a mindset where you trust everybody to help impact winning, and I don’t think that that points to a philosophy in regards to if you have multiple guys that can help you win a basketball game. It’s almost like the sum of the 40 minutes is more important than the run of the To get the flow of the game going your direction, and I could see where that would be beneficial if your roster was limited, maybe in the depth that you would say like this is what we’re going to do to give us the best chance. But it feels like in the long run, the more you can kind of keep flow and keep those guys In a way that gives you the best chance to win in those last eight minutes, which is usually a pivotal time and the swing can happen so quickly. 

Dan: 46:32

I do love the question coach, you’re off the start sub or sit hot seat. Thanks for playing that game with us. That’s a lot of fun. Joy’s. Your answers there, and we’ve got one last question for you before we close the show. Before we do, i know you’re really busy. We appreciate your time today, so thanks for coming on. 

Grant McCasland: 46:48

Dan and Pat. I love it too, man. Thanks for having me on. It’s been a dream of mine, to be honest. So I finally got the invite. You guys are the best. I really enjoy your stuff. 

Dan: 46:58

Thank you, coach. Thank you, coach. Our last question that we ask all the guests is what’s the best investment that you’ve made in your career as a coach? 

Grant McCasland: 47:08

This is, without a doubt, the number one answer. The best investment that we’ve made is Including our family, like my personal family, in coaching and it’s not close And I can tell you because the hours and the commitment and the time, i just genuinely believe that if they can see The relationship I have with my wife, that I love her, that I care about her and then I love my kids, then they can see how that translates to them, regardless of basketball, and then I think there is a Realness to it and it’s hard to do because our kids schedules are crazy. But from a young age of coaching we had a guy that actually was here, was a baseball coach named Larry Hayes. His son, shannon Hayes, was who I worked with at Midland and Our first job in West Texas, together my wife and I. That was full-time. Prior to that I was at Northeastern Junior College. I worked in the residence hall full-time and I got to coach for no stipend and then I worked as the event center staff Teaching fitness classes and then I got to go help out with the basketball program. But when I was at Midland Junior College for the first time, my wife didn’t have the money to go to travel with us for the regional tournament at the end and Shannon Hayes’s dad, larry, who was the baseball coach here, just handed my wife cash and said you’re going to the regional if we make the national tournament. You’re going like you don’t have a choice. You’re gonna call in work, you’re gonna be involved. Because I do think that the more that they see the investment of Who you are as a person, being a part of what you are every day, the more investment you get that this isn’t a business And I love college because college is their student athletes and I love that they’re getting money. I love the NIL components this I really do. I love the direction This is going, but I still it’s not professional basketball as much as like everybody wants it to kind of look like that model. I love the fact that This is an education and the people that they go to school with a regular student. That part of it is like a beautiful picture Of what really life is about, that you want to be better than other people, but really we’re all in this journey together and how do you make that Reality? and so involving my family and the investment to make sure that if there was a road trip, we were taking everybody to the national tournament. If there was an investment in our time, then I wanted my kids at practice playing one-on-one and I would have to stop practice So I could keep my two sons from fighting at the other end. The investment of including them, i think, brings way more joy and involvement as a coach And it also allows them to be a part and also allows the team to be a part of your family and see that it is bigger than just basketball. So I love the question and I love my family and I think that part of it is the beautiful part of how do you include everybody, how do you make it about the people, and that’s ultimately, i believe, how you win Our pat. 

Dan: 50:00

Always a pleasure these podcasts, and it was enlightening and Refreshing, i guess, is another word that came to mind with just you know someone at this level Who’s risen from where he was a long time ago as a manager and all the way where he is now. But I thought, with coach mccaslin, boy just came through how great of a person he is and how much that Leads into his program, which we will spend a lot of time talking about. Enjoyable experience, as always, and glad to have him on today.

Pat: 50:27

Yeah, i mentioned to you before we started recording this conversation is just his energy really came across and his Authenticity, yeah, which is always important in coaching We’ve talked a lot about before. But then it makes a lot of sense as we got in the Conversation about the value he places on just relationships and people in terms of winning on the court, so really appreciated his thoughts. But it was so clear and then even on his best investment question, like bringing a full circle Right, it makes a lot of sense when he sit down and talk with him and he talks about the people, that you notice Why he does it well or you can feel like he does it well Absolutely. And I think when we were thinking about the first bucket, the first conversation, we wanted to have You look at his track record and he’s won everywhere. 

Dan: 51:05

He’s been From the first time he took over as a head coach, like he mentioned, when he was 26, to where he is now. I mean, you just go through his record and all winning seasons and you know, you can see from your two to three to four like teams are getting better and better. And we got to give a Thanks to coach Jeff Linder Wyoming, who we asked about and knows coach mccaslin well, some ideas on topics and he said the same thing like he just wins and he knows How to do it. That was a fun, i think, topic to just explore on. And you know, to be honest, we didn’t really quite know exactly where He would take it. It was an open-ended question because there’s so many aspects that go into winning. But he went right to the heart of it right away, which was with people, and you know how important is to get the right people in the door. 

Pat: 51:49

Yeah, and going through his past, as you mentioned, like Not only is he winning but he’s taking over these programs and he’s winning right away. And he talked about, too, what he told his locker rooms, like the belief, you know, getting the buy-in right away and it comes through there. Again the relationships. But I mean it’s a very important thing to know about the Again the relationships. But I mean it’s impressive from his rise and coming in and winning right away. 

Dan: 52:10

And he mentioned, like he said, the belief and building the belief saying those things is one thing, but obviously It’s just a part of his programs that he’s run And I really enjoyed listening to him talk about the importance of the student managers or the gas, and he had some really good anecdotes as far as people that he saw that weren’t basketball guys in the past but just Added to the program in some way. When you highlight the people below you or that you know aren’t the head coaches or the assistant coaches of the star players, and that you make them so valuable and that those people are so motivated to work hard and to add to your program more than just words on a wall. It’s like you know, we’re valuing these people that are Get in the uniforms or clean the floor or whatever it is. That’s not the lam get in the uniforms or clean the floor or whatever it is. That’s not the lam, lamorous part of coaching but that so many of us have to do as you’re trying to climb in the profession. For him to talk about that i thought was nice to hear and a little bit to of this conversation, reminding me of A few weeks ago. We had london lines coach Ryan Schmidt on and he went through his pillars and the way he was trying to develop his program on a professional level. And know here we had on the college level. But you just to thought that goes into. I think was fun to hear too. 

Pat: 53:39

Yeah, and I enjoyed too I’m always again compete, play hard. You know these words get thrown out a lot, so I like Terem too, just on the court, how he emphasizes that we want to compete And then the sacrifice function that comes with. You know competing to win titles and what you’re willing to give up. But then in the practice, how, even with layups, they’re tracking everything from the drills to the day to the season, and how that also then starts to build and the sacrifice mentality to be competitors and to compete at high levels. 

Dan: 54:09

You could tell he models that from the top with what he does and who he is, and so pivoting a little bit to start, sub or sit. And the first question, the defensive considerations. you and I talked a while beforehand just about exploring the idea that when you’re setting up a defense and he has had an elite defense throughout his career but what are the other implications of how you want to play? And so we talked about different defenses that are more denial based and you’re gonna, you know, maybe be in rotations more and you’re flying around and maybe you’re gonna get steals and turnovers And that’s how you want to play. versus packing it in, being close to the rim, keeping out of the paint, you’re in better defensive rebounding situation. So that was kind of the background of what we were thinking and was great to hear it kind of spiral into a no middle or a side defense and the history of that and how he got to that point as well in that conversation. 

Pat: 55:03

Yeah, it was serendipitous because when we were coming up with this question, i think when we were trying to talk it through, the examples were you know, pack line versus a side or your ball pressure, you know, being really pressure the ball up or just keep it in front, and those were the exact conversation we had with them. So I mean we it also. So we repaired, so it was good. But I enjoyed going down that whole rabbit hole just on ball pressure And you know, i thought we said it was just like you know one guy who was really willing to compete, you know, and stay in front of the ball and pressure and disrupt the ball. How that makes just a world of difference. I thought too about our conversation with Vance Wahlberg, who said how he values those guys that maybe they can’t shoot but you know they can beat. Controllers on the defensive end, yeah, and in this case, you know coach McClaskin was saying disruptors, but just finding values in these guys and how they can definitely impact the game And, like he said, just playing this one guy a walk on, but they knew could defend led to team success rather than the more talented guys where we got to try to make it work with this guy And it goes in ties effect again what he values and what he saw in himself as a player And now as a coach 100% And Damien Cotter was discussing that Chicago Bulls assistant. 

Dan: 56:15

We discussed how really great defenders like we were talking about, i think, guarding pin down screens or things like that And you’re discussing how it depends on who’s in that screen And sometimes, like a Dremont Green or Gary Payton, they’re so individually talented defensively that allows you to play a certain way and to dictate terms. I guess on off ball screening stuff. 

Pat: 56:35

The conversation over top walk. You allow these guys to decide, like, if they’re good enough to top walk, them versus chase. Dan: 56:41

Yeah, you know that was a nugget I took And then as well to just having taught myself a little bit the no middle and the great things about it and the struggles, like both sides of it. I was really interested in the middle third conversation a lot and how they think about trying to solve some of the issues, because good offensive teams when they’re playing aside, as he called it, or no middle, they are trying to keep that ball in the middle as much as they can, where you’re most vulnerable, i mean against any defense, but just how they try to solve that. And then we had a nice kind of 10 minute conversation afterward too where we were lucky to hear some his other teaching points or thoughts on it. That part stood out to me. 

Pat: 57:20

Yeah, to the last one about burning early timeouts. I really enjoyed where this conversation actually ended. It was kind of a last minute question we came up with against the clock. Yeah, i enjoyed kind of the tangent we went into extending the run and line of considerations and burning guys early versus just keeping the flow of your rotation And whether you have a deep rotation or a short rotation and just all those factors. I enjoyed hearing his thoughts on that. 

Dan: 57:44

And I know part of you know we’re coming up with the three different examples stopping runs, extending or the kind of game plan motivation. You know, slight tap on the back, like play better timeouts. You know we had a discussion with a coach about the analytics behind. If you get up by 10 plus points at any point during the game, the percentage of time that that team wins is pretty high. I forget the exact amount right now, you know. I think in that conversation it led to well, yeah, if you’re up eight in the first half and you got a good lineup going and you know you could rest them for a second, keep them on the floor and push that lead to 11, 12, before you need to rest them. Your chances of winning are analytics, whatever X amount. Now, game’s not played on paper, obviously, but it was, i think, an interesting thing to ask about. You answered it really well to your questions on. Well, it’s kind of personnel-based. I’ve got guys that I play certain amount of minutes. They just die in the second half versus some can play 40. So it was definitely interesting. 

Pat: 58:45

And I think it’s really interesting too, like what do you do with when the starting five starts hot and you go on a run, whatever you’re up 15-5. Do you extend that and not get into your bench, like do you risk cooling them off? And again, do you overextend guys way too early to where they’re not as optimal in the second half? So I think that’s also an interesting conversation too of just you start really strong. what do you do in those moments now when it’s time to start putting in subs? 

Dan: 59:13

Maybe just I could steal a term We’ve heard a few times on the show, which is it depends. But I think like and what he said you guys were talking about it depends on how good you are. Are you like a lot better than a team you’re playing So it’s like you’re gonna be able to extend that lead probably at any point, or are you an underdog and you gotta take a big swing early to keep the lead? I mean, i guess that’s the art in the fun of coaching is reading your own players. Are they getting gassed Or do you have a chance to put a team in a bind? There’s a psychological part of it. are you on the road? Are you at home? All those things obviously factor in. 

Pat: 59:45

I agree And I guess you know you hear the old saying like never sub a winning team. But I guess to what you’re saying does it depend at times, or like, given your opponent who the guys are out there that you’re gonna extend. 

Dan: 59:58

I think we also have to probably throw in there too that at the college level there are media timeouts four and a half And so those are nice 90 second extended timeouts where every four minutes you’re getting that. So some of these timeouts may not be needed because you know you’re within a minute or two usually of a media coming up where you can rest guys, all fun stuff. Maybe just two areas I thought would have been fun to continue to explore with him. One is on this whole timeout thing And I think maybe pivoting a little bit from timeout but more special situation type of stuff with him. Like we focus this question on more first half, like when would you use it, but maybe go more special situations in the second half. That’s one. And then the other one was there is so much to the no middle and the intricacies of it. We’ve had some no middle or side conversations, we’ve done some breakdowns on it And I would have liked to pick this brand a little bit on when a team’s really hurting them, what does he find the adjustments are to that, when he needs to either make a personnel adjustment or whatever it is And just maybe some more nuances in the no middle. But we’ve covered it a little bit before. But that was one area I thought. If we had, you know, another half hour, i would have picked his brand on. 

Pat: 1:01:11

And we talked a little bit after the conversation, briefly but about like the foot ankles and opening up quickly or you know just when you’re going to side in the pick and roll. I’m just always curious on that and not giving up too much but still accomplished, you know, keeping them out of the middle, just kind of the balance between that. Another, not a miss, but within that conversation that we had about extending the run, i would like to just on rotation substitution. I’m always curious how coaches think about it, do it, but I mean it was near the end and maybe it’d take us too far off. Just kind of keep it in the conversation of the runs and time out usage rather than getting to kind of a whole another.