This week Slappin’ Glass sits down for a second time with Scott Waterman, Head Coach of NCAA Division II Academy of Art University! The trio dive into Coach Waterman unique approach to advantage disadvantage drills, “rotation” steals on defense, and discuss managing potential “red flags” and keeping things simple during the always insightful “Start, Sub, or Sit?!”
Inside the Episode
“Some of our most talented players do have that chip on their shoulder, a little bit of an ego, And I think you have to do a great job managing it. And so how can we manage it to get them to see that their success is going to come when they can be fully bought into the team And when they see that their success can come when others have success. that’s when teams get really good.” – Scott Waterman on managing ego
It was another thought-provoking week on the podcast as we were joined by Academy of Art University Head Coach, Scott Waterman, for a second time on the show! Coach Waterman was a willing guinea pig back in the day as our 2nd guest ever on the podcast and since then has led ArtU to two straight NCAA appearances, picking up the 2022 PacWest Conference Coach of the Year honors along the way. In this terrific interview Coach Waterman shares his thoughts on
- Advantage/disadvantage drills
- Generating “rotation steals”
- And we talk managing potential “red flags” and keeping things simple during the always fun “Start, Sub or Sit!?”
Chapters
0:00 Coach Waterman’s Drills
4:36 Advantage-Disadvantage Drills in Basketball Practice
9:36 Defensive Drills and Generating Steals
15:51 Advantage Drills and Communication in Basketball
23:29 Coach Discusses Simplifying Offensive Priorities
31:32 Coaching Egos and Red Flags
43:14 Coaching Frameworks and Ego Management
Transcript
Scott Waterman: 0:00
Some of our most talented players do have that chip on their shoulder, a little bit of an ego, And I think you have to do a great job managing it. And so how can we manage it to get them to see that their success is going to come when they can be fully bought into the team And when they see that their success can come when others have success. that’s when teams get really good.
Dan: 0:29
Hi, i’m Dan Krikorian and I’m Patrick Carney, and welcome to Slappin’ Glass exploring basketball’s best ideas, strategies and coaches from around the world. Today, we’re excited to welcome back to the show for a second time head coach of Division 2 Academy of Art, Scott Waterman. Coach Waterman is here today to discuss teaching through advantage disadvantage drills, generating rotation steals on defense, and we talk managing potential red flags and keeping things simple during the always fun start, sub or sit. Costa Rica, Spain, Italy, Australia, South Africa. We’re excited to announce our newest partnership with the world leader and international sport tours. Beyond Sports Founder and former college and pro basketball coach Josh Erickson and his team of former athletes have built a go-to company for coaches looking to take their programs abroad. From the travel and accommodations to excursions and service learning opportunities, beyond Sports does it all. For more information and to learn why more than 650 universities have trusted Beyond Sports, visit beyondsportstours.com and tell them. Slapping Glass sent you And now please enjoy our conversation with coach Scott Waterman. Coach, great to have you back. It’s been a couple of years and a lot of stuff has happened in between, so thanks for rejoining us again on the podcast.
Scott Waterman: 2:09
No problem, thanks for having me. It’s always great to be back for a second time. It’s funny. I was listening to our first podcast from September 3rd 2020. I was the second episode. I just want to give you guys major props for how far your guys’ product has come in that time, not just with the podcast, but the whole video platform that you guys done is awesome. Really enjoyed looking at it And I listened when back just to kind of listen to that first podcast and all of a sudden you’re getting Jay Billis, fran Foshilla and all the other huge names you’ve had on Gino Ariama. Just really props to you guys for A helping grow the game and just your persistence in building a product that’s really turned into something great for basketball coaches and players fans. So really kudos to you guys for doing that And I’m a big fan.
Dan: 2:56
Thank you, thanks, coach. Big thanks to you for taking a chance on us.
Scott Waterman: 2:59
At that point we were just three guys talking basketball and kind of revolved a little bit since then. Yeah, Yeah.
Dan: 3:05
Well, maybe it’s a good place to start too, because after that podcast we had you on, you just finished your first year as the head coach at Academy of Art. Since then, you’ve led to two back to back NCAA tournament appearances. You were the coach of the year in the PacWest last season A ton of success. So congrats to you and the program. And so a lot of good things have happened since that podcast And let’s dive in on some of your learnings and some of the things from the last couple of years. We had a conversation off air over the last couple of weeks about things we might talk about, and one of the things of interest to us was your use of advantage disadvantage drills as a teaching tool for both your offense and your defense, and you had mentioned to me about. It’s a major part of your daily practice or weekly practice plan, and so we want to dive into how, why, the nuts and bolts of it all. So we’ll throw it back to you on your thoughts and advantage disadvantage drills within your program.
Scott Waterman: 4:02
First of all, it starts with our basic defense and principles. We want to pressure, we force, baseline. We spend a lot of time, especially early in the season, working on just building up our help side, and one of the things that we’ve been fortunate in our recruiting is that we’ve been able to recruit some very high level athletes And that’s kind of been our niche and we needed something just to help play that way, and so using our ball pressure and help side, being able to switch and fly around has been something that’s been imperative to our success. And once we started building that up and it actually really didn’t take place till like our third year is when I realized we had something that we could really make of it with a lot of athletic guys, and that’s when I really started to implement the advantage disadvantage drills in practice, and there’s a couple of different ones that we utilize. So the first one and this is kind of more of a basic one that we start off with is we get into our shell alignment with, you know, your two guys in the slots, two guys on the wings. We started off just passing the ball around on the perimeter And, first of all, working on the guys getting proper position, being in the gaps, being in the help side. And when the ball gets to one of the wings after three, four, five passes, whatever it is, it’s more random just to make sure our guys are reacting, we’ll blow the whistle. The guy who’s guarding the ball on the wing has to go, touch the sideline and the offense has to attack the baseline. At that point it becomes four on three and we have to scramble, talk and communicate And we’ll play to the four or five stops. And it’s a great drill because you’re getting an offensive player who’s coming downhill. Defense has to be in the help side, you have to get outside the key to get that first initial stop And then, once that pass is made, we have to fly around, talk and react And we’re real big on making sure if there’s no talk, we automatically blow the drill, stop it and we’ll switch. But it’s something that, using our athleticism, we want to pressure, which means we’re probably going to get beat sometime, and this is a way that we can really enforce that in practice. And I like to think that we have a lot of athletic guys and, as we’re in this drill, it’s going to be greater than what we’re going to play against a lot of times in games in terms of athleticism, and I think it’s what’s made us good and really helped us fly around, and we’ll be in game sometimes And I’ll be like we didn’t work on that specifically, but it’s just a byproduct of doing like this drill and some of the other drills that we do.
Dan: 6:43
Scott, just to real quick clarify the touching the sideline, that player is not coming back in to eventually make it four on four right, Or that player’s off, so it’s four on three, He actually is Sorry, i should have said that.
Scott Waterman: 6:53
So he does come back into the drill. in this specific drill make it four on four again. But that’s where the communication comes in, in terms of he has to sprint and, depending on where the ball is, find the open man, and it could be guy closest to him. if the pass has already been made and everybody’s rotated, or if the ball’s still on that side, he may have to go all the way across the court. So again, it’s that randomization and communication that has to take place so we can get rematched up.
Dan: 7:22
Before zooming back in on some of the specifics of this drill and some other ones, your philosophy on using these as teaching tools for your team, and how many days a week are you doing the advantageous advantage drills? How much of your practice is allotted to it? You know, if we’re saying we’re doing like an average two hourish practice.
Scott Waterman: 7:40
I would say that we’re doing, especially in the preseason, at least one a day And we have a couple of different ones. I know I just jumped into the four on four shell version right there, but we’re doing one every day for you know we play a game to four or five stops, so you know a 10 minute segment every day. But then we do a lot of live in practice as well. Five on five It just kind of translate over to those situations as well. So we do one specific drill, but then we’re coaching it as we go to our five on five live segment a lot.
Dan: 8:13
And what are you from the defensive standpoint? I know we just kind of mentioned about they’re flying around, help, rotation, all that During these drills. what’s the offensive concepts that you find yourself teaching or coaching the most as you get into this stuff?
Scott Waterman: 8:28
You know I’m sure in a little bit later we’ll talk about we have an advantage, disadvantage offensive drill as well that we do. But in this particular drill it’s three things Play together, get a paint touch and get a wide open shot. And those are three big things because our offense not to kind of get away from the defensive segment here but when we are on the offensive end, we have some basic concepts. We run kind of a European flow set with some 45 cuts, but after we get one ball reversal it’s kind of just playing basketball. We’ve gotten really good at that. I like to think that it’s pretty simple concepts but it’s pretty complex to do just because you have to play together and get everybody on the same page. And this is one way that we can really develop that because, again, offensively we want to penetrate, create a disadvantage for the defense and then be able to play and make the right decision to get a great shot. And we’ve found, like most coaches, when you get to the paint you’re going to have a lot of success because the defense is going to have to collapse. So when we do it it’s a really competitive drill just because both teams are trying to score or get a stop And there’s a win that we always compete for. you know running at the end, so it makes it a really good drill.
Dan: 9:36
Don’t ever be afraid to veer into the offensive side with us. We’ll kindly follow you there anytime.
Scott Waterman: 9:43
Yeah, I never see too many clips of those On Twitter at 3 AM when Pat’s posted. Yeah.
Pat: 9:50
God, if we do look at defensive drill or when you’re doing more so tailoring it for the defense, will you train like failure? You mentioned that you guys are obviously at no middle, So you start maybe when you blow that whistle hey, let’s drive middle this time and how you guys work on solving when the offense gets middle.
Scott Waterman: 10:09
So in that particular drill we don’t. But we’ll do other drills where if there is a dribble penetration, the team’s automatically off. We don’t want it to happen, so we just blow it dead and that’s like losing. We want to keep it out. Now there are times when we scrimmage, when we coach it, when we go on five on five live, but when we drill, a lot of the times we really stick to our principles and we want to prevent that from happening. We don’t want to even let them think about allowing it.
Dan: 10:36
Scott, you’ve mentioned the defensive side, the verbiage of flying around, which I know you’ve recruited and you’ve had athleticism, like you mentioned, You and your staff thinking about the defensive side, because there’s more the pack line being gaps, everything in front and then a lot of these disadvantaged drills. They do promote flying around, getting to help side, things like that. How did you get to? hey, we want to play this style. This style is best for us and for this team on the defensive side as a whole, Part of it we ended up recruiting a class of some really athletic guys going into our third year.
Scott Waterman: 11:11
It wasn’t that we changed much from what we did the first two years. Really, the first year, the second year of the pandemic, it was kind of awash with being in San Francisco, not really having the opportunity to really practice and build something. We just got thrown into some games. But we walked into the gym and you just had a really athletic team. We just picked up our pressure a little bit more and emphasized the help side just a little bit more And with athleticism and having some guys that were really good laterally of our four fives that were better laterally, we could switch And it just kind of lended itself to it And it wasn’t like something that I walked in and said we were going to do it. I kind of walked in, saw what we had and adjusted to our personnel.
Dan: 11:54
If I could follow up to then, just as we keep going down this path. Some stats here correct me if I’m wrong, but last season you guys were six in the nation in steals per game, at around 10.3. You were 12th in the nation in turnovers forced per game. And you’ve mentioned your pressure. You’re flying around but this isn’t like a team where you’re running and jumping and trapping all possessions. I mean, you’re getting steals from somewhere And I love to dive in on how you’re generating steals and how maybe these drills help kind of teach, you know, flex that muscle specifically on where the steals are coming from, where you promote those steals to come from. Within some of the stuff we’re talking about.
Scott Waterman: 12:32
It’s funny because I don’t think we’ve ever truly like promoted getting steals because we’re not out there reaching. We have some guys that are really savvy and have some quick hands that are able to generate some steals, but a lot of our steals come from our ball pressure, forcing players to drive, get sped up and make decisions that they’re not used to making. And again, we have a great conference but there’s some opportunities that we see you in teams offenses, where we can get them sped up And when they can penetrate baseline with their head down, we may throw a trap at them. They’re trying to make a decision and they throw the ball to us. In our rotation drills that we just talked to, our advantageous advantage drills, a lot of times because the guy’s rotating around, the offensive player may not see that man rotating right back into the play. He thinks that man’s open, but we’re rotating right into it. We’re able to get a steal. We had some guys that just had some great ball instinct And as the balls were in the air they were able to just react and go get steals. And if you were talking traditional basketball I would fail And some of those things that the traditional aspects at times. But we just had some guys that knew how to make those plays and had some incredible savvy to go make them.
Pat: 13:46
And when we’re talking now again, the advantage is advantage. But looking at your rotations, what helped you guys? maybe for steals or get back to neutral? Was it better for the team to dribble more or for the team to pass it more to help you guys recover?
Scott Waterman: 14:00
Definitely dribble. We definitely close out on the high side. Again, if you’re able to get your hand in the passing lane, make a deflection. We chart deflections during games and that’s a prime target for how we get them. But we don’t want the ball to get whipped around. We want them to put the ball back on the floor Because, again, if we have a five-man closing out on a one-man, we think that we’re still in pretty good shape to make the right guard yard slide and take away a penetration. If the ball gets whipped around, we all know the ball in the air moves faster than the ball in the dribble. That could lead into an open three And we have some great shooters that we play against in our conference And we want to take that away. So we definitely want to close out on the high side, force them to take another baseline penetration and keep the ball out of the middle.
Dan: 14:47
Scott, a question about the advantage-disadvantage four on three to four on four. I’m assuming you have other ones too that we can talk about in a second. But sometimes when there’s only four players on the floor or it’s not a five-on-five situation where players will say, well, there’s going to be an extra guy. So what do I do in this help gap? I’m sure there’s questions that come up in these advantage-disadvantage drills where you maybe have to walk through the gray area. How do you, i guess, translate what an actual rotation might look like as opposed to what it looks like in one of these drills?
Scott Waterman: 15:18
You make a great point and that has come up And we address it. But say, for the purposes of the drill we have to figure it out, because in a game it may not be perfect like that And same thing in a drill Like we may have penetration, baseline, pass, pass and the wrong guys closing out by that point in time, just because it’s happened so quick and you’re right that fifth defender should be there. But for the purposes of the drill we got to figure it out And we will address and discuss it. But it doesn’t change the purpose of why we’re doing the drill, because we again don’t want that to matter in a game.
Pat: 15:51
Someone still got to get there, scott early in the season, when you’re working with these drills and you mentioned, like communications, kind of the non-negotiable, you’ll stop, you’ll reset it. But when there’s our situations that we’ve talked about that arise, guys just aren’t familiar with each other. They’re learning the coverage. How much are you choosing to stop and discuss versus to let go?
Scott Waterman: 16:10
I’m personally real big on letting them try to figure it out. We know we stop like if they don’t do it right or there’s a miscommunication, stop, flip it, let them go to offense, let them get back score and have to get back on defense. But I think that it’s really important And I think that the last two years’ teams, when the guys realized the mistakes they were making and able to coach them themselves, that’s when we got pretty good And not to say that we don’t coach it. But I think that there also has to be a line where they need to start, especially early in the season, start really getting to know each other and getting a feel for how they play and need to figure it out themselves. Now there will be times that when something does go really astray, that we will stop it and coach them through it and talk it out. But if there’s a small little miscommunication thing, i feel it’s really important that they try to figure it out themselves, because in a game on the court you only have four timeouts. I’m not going to be able to call timeout or you know, hopefully that immediate timeout comes to be able to discuss it. We’re going to have to be able to pick it up on the fly and do it on our own, and that’s purely on them and it needs to start early. And again we’ve had some issues with it where we haven’t quite got our communication down, and I think that’s why maybe at times you haven’t had the best starts to the season, but as the season progresses and we’ve started to really develop our communication skills and you really get to know each other, because the last two years we have brought in five, six new guys every year. That’s when it’s really started to take our team to that next level on the defensive end.
Pat: 17:36
You mentioned that you know if they mess up you’ll flip it and they’ll have to score to get back on defense. So now, of course, the other thing is, well, getting your offense able to play in advantages, so you can also train your defense to get better. So now, if we look at how you work with your offense and getting them to play in advantages, and building now on the other side of the ball through the advantages, advantage drills- Yeah, obviously, the drill that I just talked about, the four and four shell, that’s more of a defensive emphasis.
Scott Waterman: 18:02
So let me flip and talk about an offensive drill that we do. We start with guy in each corner and guys in the slots In the slot will be the guy with the ball and the defender who is guarding him has to start with his heels on the three point line. The guy with the ball in the slot can start at the volleyball line and is able to start downhill going free. It has to attack the defender So he has an advantage in the initial penetration. This is what we call our slot down penetration drill. And once he attacks in penetration it’s live. And again, our offensive concepts in this drill are first an explosive initial penetration, getting your shoulder down on the defender’s hip, getting explosive and trying to especially create a big gap on that first dribble as you get by. At that point in time we talk about reading the help side defender, the low man, and seeing where he is, because if you can get to the rim and finish, we obviously want that as our first priority. And at that point in time, if he’s coming to help, then you’ve got to focus on what the next decision is reading that secondary defender And we spend a good deal of time doing this. Both four on four and five on five will put a postman on the block, so really have to simulate what it’s like. But we like to start with the four on four bread situation to kind of unplug the middle there on the offensive side. But again it’s the same concept that I kind of talked about earlier. Get to the paint. Now you’re just reading the defense and making the right decision to help your team get a great shot.
Pat: 19:33
As you mentioned, communication was the must I mean you mentioned. get paint, try to hunt the shots you’re hunting for. But I guess what is your non-negotiable in this drill? that if they don’t do this then we’re going to change it over.
Scott Waterman: 19:44
So great question. I don’t know necessarily that there is a specific one Like, and this kind of goes to something. maybe we’ll talk about a little bit later. When I coach defense, it’s very objective. Yes, no, either there or you’re not. Offensively, there’s a little bit more subjectivity to things. Just being able to get downhill and create advantage for the offense by getting that rotation is probably the biggest thing that we’re looking to do. And then, obviously, shot selection. Is it a good shot or is it a great shot Being able to make that one more pass, versus taking a quasi-contested shot with a guy in your hand and your face when there’s one more pass to the guy in the corner who’s wide open? So it’s really trying to. I guess if you were to say if that’s the non-negotiable, then that would be at our shot selection.
Dan: 20:33
Following up on that in these drills too? are you wanting the offense to get to any type of like secondary action, like dribble handoffs, on-ball screens, or are you mostly focused on you’ve created advantage. Just play through some of our dribble drive, spacing stuff to score.
Scott Waterman: 20:49
So in these type of drills we typically say well, I should say there’s times where we’ll say you can ball screen out once we get going. Sometimes, no, we will kind of put parameters on setting ball screens, depending on what we’re trying to work on that day. We do allow dribble handoffs all the time. That’s typically considered a pass, But ball screens someday will say you can ball screen. Sometimes we’ll say you won’t, just depending on what we’re trying to work on that day and what we’re trying to get out of the drill.
Dan: 21:17
So I would imagine these drills are really helpful when you do get to five on five and you run whatever set entry action and it’s like what happens next. These drills are obviously helpful for the spacing, the re-spacing, what happens in your offense after whatever you want to do.
Scott Waterman: 21:33
Yeah, and that kind of leans to what I talked about earlier. When we get into our flow concepts and once we get past that first reversal, we want our guys to play, and this really leads to it And, like you kind of mentioned, there’ll be days where we all will set that ball screen and look to play out of it afterwards. Just the primary basis of the drill, though, is just pure penetration.
Pat: 21:53
And Scott, how are you helping guys who are struggling to make quick decisions in these advantage drills that are routinely giving away the advantage?
Scott Waterman: 22:00
First of all we obviously we film these and we can show film after practice next day, before practice. But we also do when we do breakdown drills with our guards and digs. There’s small little pieces of this that we will do So we’ll just work on. If you were to ask our guys, they probably would have never thought it was translating to this when we did it. But just start off getting downhill, slot penetration two on O, slot penetration three on O And just doing those buildup which translate to this. But we don’t necessarily say we’re doing this for a specific reason. We just do it as part of our guards big skill development sessions.
Dan: 22:37
You touched on it briefly earlier, but like to circle back on your development as a head coach and kind of you starting to lean in to more and more of, i guess, the defensive side We had talked off air a little bit about. you know, as a assistant, much more, i guess, offensive leaning And then, as you become a head coach, more defensive leaning. I love to just pick your brain more on that.
Scott Waterman: 22:59
As we talked about. You know, I spent a lot of time I was an assistant coach coaching the offense and always had a great feel for it and cause. That’s what I’d always done. And then after my first year, I really realized. Obviously I knew how important defense was, but I felt it was way more important that I, as a head coach, really spend more time focusing on that, because defense wins, games really changed And it kind of goes back to subjectiveness of offense and defense is black or white, But there you’re not. Yes, there is some subjectivity at times, but it’s a lot easier just to be like you weren’t on the help side, you didn’t block out, you closed out and the guy got middle. So it’s a little bit easier in those terms to be able to coach, in my opinion, just because it’s blatantly obvious you know offense. Pat’s a great shooter. He can have a little bit more leeway, let’s say, versus Dan, who may struggle to shoot. But I just felt for the team to maximize its potential, the head coach I felt had to be leading the charge on the defensive side of the ball. When we make those adjustments and everything, it’s going through me as the head coach. So I’d better be the one that really has enforced, on a day to day basis, what we’re trying to do.
Dan: 24:10
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Scott Waterman: 25:51
I’ve listened to about a hundred of these other coaches and now you get on the hot seat It’s a little bit different. So I would say I would start our cutting actions because I think when our offense gets stagnant we’re not cutting. And when we cut good things happen And I’m a firm believer, like we’ll get into a five-out set, one of our kind of options in transition, and we automatically the wing offensive player has to cut And that allows our big. We’ve had a really good, you know, five men the last couple of years. You can put the ball on the floor to penetrate Or that can lead, do a reversal into a ball screen. Now I would sub transition offense. We use our defense to create our offense. It’s allowed us to get a lot of get out or again use our athleticism to get out and transition. I still think we can do a better job of getting to the corners. We still kind of shortcut that a little bit, but that’s again a way to generate easy points. And then I would sit the post. Post, not negotiables, even though again, that’s important we talk about As soon as the ball gets to the post. We have to have a cutter or an interchange up top to create some spacing. But the first two are much more common than post actions in our offense And that’s why I would say I would sit that one.
Dan: 27:06
I love to just maybe zoom out for a second on all these answers And just your learnings over the last three or four years is you’ve taken over on what you decide to focus on and how you come to those decisions? Because you know, as we chat off air, there’s a million things you can do on offense, a lot of great stuff out there. But as a head coach, when you have to make these decisions and really hone in, how do you start to really narrow in on what’s the most important for your team?
Scott Waterman: 27:31
Yeah, i think first of all I look at our personnel, and we’re at a division two school And it’s not like we have the opportunity to go handpick the guys that we want NIL money to recruit guys. We’re kind of a wide breath, and if we can get this guy who’s really good, maybe doesn’t quite fit traditionally what we do. We have to make some adjustments. We will do that. So first of all you have to look at your personnel. Second thing you have to look at as a coach, i have to look at what I’m comfortable teaching. There’s so many great concepts in the game of basketball, but there’s a learning curve that goes with those, and so I have to stick to what I know and what I’ve learned. And so that’s kind of the big thing is how can I teach this? So my guys are going to understand and do a good job, and as a head coach in four years I’ve screwed that up several times, trying to do too much or trying to teach things that I don’t have a full grasp of, and it doesn’t turn out great. So I have to stick to what I know and what I’ve been around.
Pat: 28:25
Scott, on that note I’d like to follow up about your cutting and just how you’ve developed teaching it. And basically the conversation we always seem to have is, like you said, you mentioned kind of like the schematic cut of. You always want that guy the slot cutting clear for your five or teams have. If it’s a baseline drive always 45. So basically where you fall in teaching cutting like the schematic versus just teaching guys like understanding his head’s turned like cut kind of that. Read react cutting. We talk about both.
Scott Waterman: 28:54
Obviously there are situations where it’s an automatic and then there’s situations where you’re reading the defender and we’ve had success with both And it helps have some guys that have some great basketball IQs that can notice and a guy defender’s backs turned and be able to back cut and get a layup. But we also have some actions where it’s non-negotiable. Where you’re cutting, you may not get the ball, but your cut is going to help create an open three because the defense has to suck in. So we talk about both and it’s great in film especially, to be able to do that with guys and say, hey, right now you see the defender’s head’s turned, what should you do? And it’s obviously a lot easier to have those the normal actions of the cut. But I think when guys are get really good is when they can just read it and do it automatically, out of situations that typically you don’t quote. Unquote work on.
Pat: 29:46
Maybe bringing it full circle, do you find that those advantage disadvantaged drills also help breed cutting or help the guys understand when to cut and how to read their defender?
Scott Waterman: 29:56
I would say it helps them understand the spacing. So within the concept of spacing, yes, cutting is involved. When necessarily say you’re always going to cut in those type of drills Just that fifth guy, we tend to keep it a little bit more spread on the perimeter, but when you see the spacing in those drills you can understand, once that extra guy gets out there, when to cut.
Dan: 30:19
I love to follow up with your sub, the transition offense, and watching your team play, especially this year like running to that spacing. Sometimes you guys have a good action. You know the kind of Marquette stuff at times where you’re ghosting from that corner. How much stuff you worry about doing in transition. What I mean is, are you trying to get into action quick? You have a bunch of options. Are you just trying to get to space, get to a couple of quick things you know you can do and then just start flowing offensively?
Scott Waterman: 30:48
We’re just trying to get to space and flow. We talk about some actions and we try to keep it to two or three things Ball reversal, ball screen, like you talked about. we call it eagle action, where we looked for the Marquette ghost action, but after that we just really want our guys to play that. we think that that’s an opportunity for us to use again all these drills that we’ve kind of talked about to our advantage.
Pat: 31:11
All right, Scott, our next one. We call this yellow flags. So we’re going to give you three player characteristics that aren’t quite red flags but they’re on your radar. You’re keeping a close eye on them. So the start would be the most concerning, or the one that’s stressing you a little bit more that we got to watch this guy. So start subset. The bad loser just can’t handle losing. Well, The egotistical player, borderline, maybe a little selfish at times For the yes, but player who kind of always has an excuse or a reason. You’re just constantly hearing Yeah, but can you tie for all?
Scott Waterman: 31:55
So I would have to say the yes, but guy, probably the start. Just find a way to get it done, get better, keep working like there’s no need to make excuses. The sub is the quasi egotistical player, because I think you can work with those type of guys to help to get them to buy into what you want, buying into the team concept, and The bad loser would be the sit. Just because you want guys that are want to play so hard and want to win that losing doesn’t register with them, and It’s again one of those things where you don’t want any of them. But I would rather take a guy that losing hurts them so much that they become a bad loser, then having selfish guys or guys are just trying to make excuses to get out of things.
Pat: 32:43
Scott, these are tough players at times to deal with. But we wanted to basically get to the conversation of how you deal with them, how you try to bring them back in the fold, and you mentioned a little bit with the yes, but player, and then you alluded to it with the egotistical player, the ways that you’ll try to get him to buy back in.
Scott Waterman: 32:58
If you could just share, kind of, then what’s your processes with dealing with these types of players a lot of one-on-one meetings, a lot of film, a lot of Addressing it within the crux of the entire team and not being afraid to call it out, situations out. We’ve had situations where we, on film, we’ve shown in front of the whole team This is a selfish shot. Look at these two guys. That were wide open and it’s not something like. It’s just always a one-time Addressing it and it’s gonna be solved. It’s sometimes hitting a square peg into a round hole. It takes some time, you have to constantly address it and it’s hard, but it’s just a lot of conversation and getting them to see. I think the other thing is Having success without that player involved and especially when, like, the team has success and he may be on the bench or out with an injury Or during practice, then when they start to really see it, i think that’s another way that can really shock them into giving up some of that ego and When you’re in a, call this player out in front of the team, maybe on film, and say like, hey, this is a selfish shot.
Pat: 33:59
I guess what are you aware of as a coach? I guess the groundwork that you feel you probably have laid in place So you are gonna offend the player a little bit, but not lose the player by calling him out in front of everyone, in front of his peers, like right away.
Scott Waterman: 34:12
I think we call a lot of guys out on film because we want great shots and Sometimes it becomes a little bit of a debate because they think it’s a good shot And it may very well be a good shot But if there’s 18 seconds on the shot clock and it’s halfway contested versus, we can make two more passes and get an Contested one. You know we have those debates and it’s not just with one player, that’s it’s gonna be addressed to it’s six games. Then it’s probably nine or ten guys that have had that same conversation. So I don’t think anybody gets offended by it. I think sometimes they want to have conversations of why we think it’s a bad shot And it’s healthy discussion to have that type of confrontation So we can really solidify what are good or what aren’t good shots. Because again, it’s subjective, some guys It’s different. But yeah, it’s difficult mine to walk for sure I love to ask about the ego.
Dan: 34:57
You know, when Pat and I were talking about this question, this is obviously a player who’s talented and you kind of need to win. I mean, if this is someone deep around your bench, these conversations and yellow flags are different. Love to ask about the ego because you coach a lot of talented guys. You know, sometimes a little bit of an ego is not a Terrible thing. But you’ve mentioned about like you had your three things on offense about play together and things like that What you’ve learned, i guess, about coaching talented people that come with, rightfully so, a little bit of an ego, about how they play and How you just try to mesh that together into a team concept year over year you’re right to.
Scott Waterman: 35:33
Some of our most talented players do have that chip on their shoulder, a little bit of an ego, and I think you have to do a great job managing it. You could say the way of basketball is today. They’ve been told that they’re good and That ego has developed, and so how can we manage it to get them to see that Their success is gonna come when they can be fully bought into the team and when they see that their success can come when others have success And it really just puts everything together. That’s when teams get really good. And again, it’s managing. It’s being able to talk to them, being able to show them film, being able to coach them and Knowing that they’re not gonna pick it up on the first time. It’s gonna take 20 practices, you know, to fully embrace those type of things. It’s not just gonna come overnight. I just randomly threw out the number 20, but it’s something that takes time, but I don’t think it’s something that can’t be overcome.
Dan: 36:25
Have you changed your approach at all on those kinds of discussions and conversations since our last podcast? Is there anything you do differently now or you’ve learned about those kinds of conversations?
Scott Waterman: 36:35
Yeah, I would say that I’ve become much better at addressing it and Being able to notice it. I’m the type of guy that I will hit my head on the wall a thousand times until I can break through, and I’m not gonna give up until we can try to make those strides in terms of you mentioned, you’re better at noticing, kind of when it’s an unhealthy ego, let’s say, because everyone’s gonna make selfish decisions at times.
Pat: 37:01
It’s part of nature. Is it the frequency that you notice that alarms you, or are there certain standout situations that this is something I have to stop immediately and we got to address?
Scott Waterman: 37:11
It’s definitely the standout situation. Obviously repeat offenses of the same thing over and over again, but the big ones are the ones that just stand out.
Dan: 37:19
It’s got your team values, your program, you know standards. How do that maybe help you in all of these yellow flags that become red flags, things that maybe you talk about as a program, that are, you know, really important to you culturally? that helps at the groundwork so that these yellow flags stay yellow and don’t turn red.
Scott Waterman: 37:38
I think, first of all, it gets back to vetting as we recruit and making sure that we’re getting the right guys that fit Wanting to be coached, wanting to be disciplined, wanting to be held accountable, wanting to be showing a sense of positivity. Those type of things are really important as we vet the recruiting process. And Bringing in the right guys that fit that mold help for sure, because that’s kind of what our culture is built on, those concepts.
Dan: 38:05
I gotta ask because, if you ask most coaches in college basketball on the West Coast especially, you’re known as one heck of a recruiter, and you just talked about the vetting process. How are you vetting deeper That you feel comfortable knowing that this person’s gonna fit?
Scott Waterman: 38:20
first of all, I can’t take a credit. I have a great staff Booker Harris gave pompous card that do a phenomenal job of Getting out and finding the right guys that we’re looking for, so I owe a lot to them for helping us get the right players, and DJ Broom and Clint Tramelling before those two did the same for us. But it’s again. It’s about having conversations with coaches a you coaches and Getting to form relationships with the recruits that we’re talking to. It typically stands out as we’re going through that if there’s those yellow red flags that we need to be alert on, and I’m not afraid to take chances, unguys, by any means. I think that one of my strengths and possibly weaknesses is that I want to try to help everybody thrive and get to where I can, and I’m not going to quit on you once you’re in our program And I’ll continue to fight to make you a better player, better person, and it’s something that I want my program, want myself, to be about. I want, whenever you leave our program, to have taken that huge step up the ladder as a person and a player, and I’m not going to be afraid to take chances just because someone may have a questionable thing. Now, if it’s outlandish, then obviously that’s a different story. But I’m not afraid to delve into fighting to help a guy get better. So they can not just be a better player, but once they get into the workforce, fatherhood, being a husband, all those things all come full circle. So that’s something that I really want to pride myself on.
Dan: 39:49
Scott, you’re off the start sub or sit hot seat. That was great. Appreciate all your insight there. So we got one last question before we do. Thanks again for coming back a second time. Congratulations on all your success over the last couple of years. We really appreciate it today.
Scott Waterman: 40:02
I appreciate you guys having me back. You guys are doing a great job and just really proud of the product that you guys are doing and proud to call you guys friends. And even though I can say I did help Pat get to his pro career That’s right that freshman summer camp, i’m a coach, so I did something right in my career, that’s right.
Dan: 40:23
Our last question we asked all the guests is what’s the best investment that you’ve made in your career?
Scott Waterman: 40:29
Yeah. So first of all, i mean there’s several different things I would say. First, just investing in myself, being willing to take a chance, being willing to put yourself out there, being able to do whatever it took to kind of get to the position I’m in right now and it hasn’t been an easy journey. You know, i’ve done things on my own dollar being flying across the country, going to meet people and investing in myself to try to get to this position. My family, my parents, my wife, have been incredibly supportive. That’s a huge investment in them as well, for all that they’ve given back to me. Those are the two big things, and then, lastly, just my players. For the last 21 years that I’ve had an opportunity to coach, i’ve got to know some phenomenal young men, and the belief that they’ve had in me to be able to coach them and be able to help them in their lives. It’s something that I can’t take away. So those are the three things that I really feel are investments.
Dan: 41:31
Getting a chance to do this podcast. Over the last few years, obviously, we’ve met a ton of coaches from all over the world And it’s fun to like with Coach Water and with Scott here. You and I had a prior relationship. I mean going way back. Obviously he was just your freshman coach, yeah.
Pat: 41:47
It was a summer league man, yeah, crazy.
Dan: 41:49
Which we were just kind of chatting about afterwards. And then you know, him and I coached against each other for a few years in the conference I’m in now before he moved on And so it’s been really fun to obviously have that back experience. But then see how he’s built the Academy of Art program. Obviously he was named the coach of the year a couple of years ago back to back NCAA runs. I mean he’s really done a heck of a job with that And so fun personally to have him back on. And he did give us a shot when we were just recording this thing in a closet in middle of the pandemic and Exactly Figured out what the heck we were doing. So thanks to Scott for coming back on. Let’s dive in right away. I mean there was a ton there. I’ll kick it to you to start about some of your first takeaways here.
Pat: 42:34
Yeah, i think we were both excited. I mean I know you’ll touch on too, but talking to these advantages, advantage drills It’s always the great part about meeting these coaches is just learning and picking their minds on how they teach. I think so much of the game is operated in the gray And I think this is what these drills really just help you I wouldn’t say master, but get more comfortable at and just the speed of decisions offensively and defensively. And I mean it was cool for sure to hear him talk on two drills that they specifically do a lot, but more so just how it’s kind of helped them improve their overall offensive and defensive philosophy and concepts. So really enjoyed picking his thoughts on that. I mean I’ll throw it back to you.
Dan: 43:14
I think that what really interested I know us going into this conversation with Scott, was you and I talked about this a lot off air about whether or not you can or what you put in. You know, if you listen to this podcast, there’s a million ideas and you can’t do it all. And I think what is interesting to hear like from Scott’s point of view is just like a framework for teaching and a framework for getting to however it is you want to play, and in his case he talked a lot about the space scene and they do great action as well. People get a chance to watch Academy of Art. There’s a lot of similarities to talk about with some of the Marquette stuff we’ve done earlier, but it’s cool, like with this conversation, to hear a little bit behind the scenes of how the fundamentals of whatever it is are built. And Scott had mentioned both on air and off air with us that these drills and this way of teaching is really important to him because there’s so much to be learned from it On both sides of the ball, and he gave two good examples, you know one, the shell drill and then the slot down drill, and both the defensive and the offensive side just being able to teach.
Pat: 44:22
However, it is that you want to teach through those things And then, even with, of course, teaching within, i think, just building what’s valuable or what matters most to you.
Dan: 44:31
I mean, we kept coming back to the communication, so I also think that a few weeks ago we discussed with Andrew May, head coach of Snow College JC, a little bit about some of the drills and the advantage stuff that he did Reading backside defenders. it kind of reminded me a little bit of that conversation. And these drills directly get into offensively. you’re coming downhill and just how you deal with that backside defender and then how your offense, i guess, kind of flows out of it. And my other major point that I took away from these drills him leaning into the philosophy of flying around using their athleticism, being able to rotate and switch and all that kind of stuff, and him talking about it on air and I guess off air too about like he loves these drills because those things are just embedded in the drill. naturally. It’s not like he has to create a separate drill for rotations and a separate drill for switching. Like they’re in there and if you’re not doing it quickly, on time, then you obviously you’re not going to complete the drill or you’re not going to be successful in it, and so I just really liked that point a lot.
Pat: 45:36
I agree. And then if we look at, you know when he was working his offense, as he said to, i think, when I followed up about the cutting question and the start subset, but that it’s. These drills are really good too for individual development, developing skill, which I think is another thing. We hit on a lot And ways to also work on player development, developing skill, but within the team framework and not necessarily you don’t always have a time to just dedicate to a small group setting, a one on one setting, of just putting them in these situations that force skill to come out.
Dan: 46:07
It was good for us to really get into the defensive side too. I think it’s like eating our vegetables. Yeah, we love the offensive side, but we know obviously the defense is so important. And my other little just takeaway, too, within all this was I thought it was an interesting nugget about him becoming more defensive minded as a head coach.
Pat: 46:26
Yeah.
Dan: 46:27
And then like how that translates to the team’s identity and kind of the fabric of how they play. I can say this from experience I’ve coached against Scott And when he was an assistant and offensively like, he is a hell of an offensive coach too. I think he’s, you know, downplaying himself a little bit, But I think that it’s interesting as he’s talked, as he’s grown as a head coach and you know, just a way to get your team to buy into a certain philosophy and style. Play was a nice nugget too that I took from that first part. I agree, We’ll start subset. You kind of touched on it, but you know there’s a lot of good stuff there yellow flags and the main thing, the main thing. But what stood out to you first there?
Pat: 47:02
I really enjoyed, if I jump ahead, the conversation we had about the yellow flags and the egotistical ones, But I enjoyed the question you posed to him after your follow up, just about being kind of general and finding what’s important to you and what you want to hold the sense, keep the main thing, Just like his response. I think that’s really interesting again, And he went to hit on it that there’s times where you can try to do too much. you know as a coach we’re always learning, hearing new things and just making sure you’re comfortable in what you know and what you can teach. and you know sticking to that kind of doubling down on your strengths at times, versus maybe trying to overcomplicate or take on too much, that you know is probably ill advised at times. Yeah.
Dan: 47:43
In that question. I mean, we’re listening back and thinking about some of our past podcasts around that subject and Josh shirts, Now Indiana State head coach, talked about this. really well, keeping the main thing, the main thing when we talked to him also a while back, But just as a head coach, how important it is to you know, not get caught up in things that just maybe don’t help your team or there’s information overload, yeah, and I thought that, yeah, that was a fun conversation about what it is. That was important, you know, regardless of the answers were great about transition offense and the cutting stuff which he teaches really well, but I thought that was a big takeaway for me too. And then I just also loved your start subset about the yellow flags. It’s like, yeah, i know you and I, coming up with that conversation, are both thinking about players we’ve played with and have coached Yeah, everybody’s got these yellow flags roaming around and just getting into a little bit about how to manage that, how to maybe turn the volume up on some of these when you need it. You want to almost play to their, their slight ego at times, or you want to. You know he liked that being a poor loser sometimes is closely connected with because they’re competitive. So that’s okay. I just think it’s a really interesting conversation and, you know, funny, here’s thoughts on it.
Pat: 48:59
Definitely And this was what was fun when we were putting this question together. I mean, okay, for sure, probably with the yeah, but player, there really is no fine line. That guy is always annoying. But with the, the sore loser or the ego physical, i mean there is a fine line where, like you said, you can’t turn it up or play it to your favor. And then getting to the real crux of the question was okay, yeah, let’s rank these, it’s fun. But how do you then deal with these players and how do you try to manage them? and managing egos And like that’s probably one of the number one jobs as a coach and how he tries to buy them back in and for sure through the use of film and showing them when the team does well and they’re on the bench, right, you know, kind of playing to their ego that way like hey, we’re having success without you.
Dan: 49:44
Yeah, yeah for sure. And this conversation was also like one of my favorite parts of the conversation and also a part that I think we could keep going deeper on Or we could keep exploring in different ways too. So it’s sort of you know, twofold for me because, like, the ego question is really interesting And we talked about it. Your best players, they come packaged with that quite often And so you need them and that kind of what makes them good because they have the ego, they think that they can make the shot and make the pass, make the play, and you want that. And it’s not so much squashing their ego So it’s not there It’s just helping them understand how to use their ego for the good of the team.
Pat: 50:22
Yeah, but how to channel it properly. So for team success, and that’s what he said, how he just would create that buy-in by, if they did something good on defense, to showing them how, like hey, you know, you’re helping us win here, and kind of playing to their ego in that sense, like whatever you do Because obviously we framed it through this is a player who is impactful on your team. Yes, and you need to. It’s going to be a focal point. So right, and always just channeling the little things you know, playing to their ego, as we said, just to make sure, like this adds value to our team’s success And that you can also do this. There’s more to you than just I’m sure is in this case, probably scoring is what we’re thinking of here.
Dan: 51:01
For sure, Another great conversation. Can you wish Scott much success. Always good to catch up with him. Yeah, absolutely.
Pat: 51:10
No, it was a lot of fun and it’s fun to see all the success that, like you said, Scott’s had his career so far.
Dan: 51:15
For sure We’ll do this again next time.